Exams are done, for better or worse. I hallucinated spiders on my keyboard.
A day and a half to recuperate, and then Friday is moving day. And then no internet until May 5th! Oh noes! Such tumultuous change.
I’ve been awake for all of twenty minutes after sleeping all day (yes, literally) so thoughts are a little polar bear manifesto at the moment.
So two general thoughts.
-=-
I was at a friend’s place yesterday, so I tried out WoW and sure enough there was no lag to speak off. Well, I mean I was on a laptop and they were torrenting and stuff, so I was sitting at around 250ms, but still. No lag spikes, no disconnects. I got to raid again!
As frost.
I could have stuck with arcane, but meh. I don’t dislike any mage spec, and if I hadn’t gone frost a hunter would have had to go Survival. And frankly, having tried survival myself? I would never, ever inflict that on someone. Besides, the hunter in question has been die-hard marksman his entire WoW career. Warlord title, never once specced beastmaster throughout the entirety of TBC, you know the type.
So with a frost spec in hand, I shipped off to Icecrown Citadel and found out the hard way which mobs can be stunned and which can’t. Nothing is as heartbreaking as watching your 26k damage spell turn into a 5 second stun that deals nothing. Imagine blowing all your cooldowns as arcane, slamming arcane blasts into a boss, and then freaking out because everything’s critting for 2k. Then you come to the horrible realization that you’re casting rank 1 arcane blast for some reason.
That is how much it hurts.
Still, having a permanent Dribbles (I call him Dribbles, capital D, and don’t you forget it) to follow you around is plenty awesome. If only he would stop despawning whenever I took a portal or loading screen to somewhere. There were a few times where I noobed it up, forgot to summon the thing, and then he missed out on the wave of raid buffs.
Sorry Dribbles. I shall try to not be a terrible frost mage next time. You know, that little guy is truly the immortal one around here. Standing in whirlwind, casting happily along with 50 stacks of mystic buffet, and doesn’t afraid of anything.
Tangent: raiding as a frost mage is extremely strange, thematically. I am a frost mage, a master of ice and snow, the midnight sun and hot springs. And yet, in order to raid optimally, I have two roots and one snare. Both fire mages and arcane mages have access to those, plus frostbolt, and they can spec for even more.
It is very strange.
-=-
So 10 and 25 man raids are going to be normalized. They share lockouts, heroic modes are chosen on a per boss basis, and even the loot quality is exactly the same between the two, as is the difficulty.
Look, everyone from Tamarind to Honorshammer has bemoaned the fate of the 10man ghetto. You could either raid with the big boys in 25man, get the best of the best loot, experience hard core fights, or go 10man and be held in contempt as scrubs by fellow players and even the game itself.
10man raiding never really felt like raiding an instance for 10 players. Instead, we were traipsing through 25 player content that was lobotomized for us. Whenever we ran into difficult fights, we’d look at and research the fights on tankspot and elsewhere, to find strategies we could use. There we would watch a holy priest with val’anyr effortlessly healing through hardmode Anub’arak using nothing but shield and renew to keep the entire raid alive.
This strategy didn’t work. Not even close. Using nothing but renew and shield to heal someone results in that someone dying four or five seconds later.
It isn’t easy being a strict(ish) 10 man guild in Lich King. Our raid comp is nowhere near ideal (no shaman, for instance), and without the gear 25 man raiders use to carry themselves through 10man content we have to use some extremely weird strategies to defeat bosses sometimes. We’ve had to use Death Knights to juggle kinetic bombs and tank the shadow bolting boss, for instance.
For example, last night I was the only caster DPS in the raid. Me and a lone hunter made up the entirety of the ranged DPS. At least the druid got to be boomkin for the first four bosses, but after that it was full time tree.
Anyway, point is, 10man raiding never really was 10man raiding. It was 25man raiding with less players and worse loot.
I didn’t (and still don’t) care nearly as much as my fellow guildmates do. Being able to raid with 10 people trumps any consideration such as loot; doing 10man raids with 10man gear made for some interesting difficulty curves; and the respect of faceless others is so unimportant to me that the colour of my toothbrush is more important.
It’s easy to see where they’re coming from. Clearing ToC-10 and wondering why an iLevel 200 trinket is still best in slot. Watching strat videos just to watch the elite core of a 25man guild take the best possible raid comp into a 10man instance and crush it effortlessly with gear that is more than twenty item levels higher than your own. On and on and on. That gets frustrating after a while.
10man raiding can be difficult. It has been in the past. Remember Zul’Aman? There was nothing easy about it. Even the perfectly optimized 25 man raiders would head in there and struggle.
I suspect Blizzard’s goal with cataclysm is the same goal they had with lich king: offer 10man raiding as a legitimate thing to do.
Will this change sound the deathknell of 25man raiding?
I posit the question: why on earth would it? People who want to raid 25m do so, and suffer no penalty nor benefit from it. People who want to raid 10m do so, and suffer no penalty nor benefit from it.
Raid leaders shifting from doing 25m to 10m raids in order to lessen the stress of their job! Oh noes! So they have more fun raiding?
People who currently raid 25m, but don’t actually like it that much due to the social strains (or maybe they just do it for the loot), will be able to raid 10m without feeling like a ghetto raider and have more fun with their friends!
People who currently raid 25m and actually do enjoy it will be able to keep doing what they love in huge epic battles!
I don’t see a downside anywhere.
If this were the only change, the major issue is that you lose nearly half of your emblem income – and emblem vendor items cost a lot. That’s where the QQ comes from.
What others don’t realize is that this is probably going to be coupled with lowered emblem costs! The change basically allows you to spend less time playing the game, and not get a penalty for it.
All and all, a moot point. The same people QQing are probably pulling 2k DPS in 245 gear espousing their supreme uberness.
Arguably the loss of extra emblems is a plus. If the only reason you’re doing 10s (or 25s) is for the badges, then this change will give you a lot of free time and breathing room. As you say, less time playing and no penalty for that.
Besides, everyone else has the same badge income, and it will be literally impossible to exceed the badge income cap.
Thus the costs for gear are going to be extremely easy to balance.
That’s … actually … a very good point …
I’ve heard lots of complaints that boil down to three themes:
1. 25mans are harder to lead, organize, and optimize, so should drop better loot
2. 25mans feel more epic and (historically) are harder than 10mans, so should drop better loot
3. Nobody will run 25mans if they don’t drop better loot
Especially since all the 25-man raids I’ve been in have been monstrously easier than the 10-mans, I have trouble seeing the 25-raiders’ POV. Also, epicness is nice and all, but the impersonal nature of 25s compared to 10s is … jarring. I don’t feel like I matter much when I’m only doing 6% of raid dps.
The only legitimate gripe I hear is about the shared lockout. It’s never fun when your guildies need just one more tank or healer, but you can’t come along.
25s are tuned plenty tight at the difficult end of the scale. It might not feel like you matter on the easier content, but there are many fights where if you are literally one yard incorrect in your positioning, you wipe the entire raid near instantly.
Your DPS contribution is only a small part of your actual contribution on tightly tuned encounters.
Perhaps under the current set of rules, awarding better loot for the harder encounters (like it or not, at the high end, 25man is significantly more difficult than 10man, even if you only consider the differing positional requirements) makes sense.
In cataclysm, where difficulty between 10m and 25m raids isn’t going to differ whatsoever, awarding higher quality loot just doesn’t make any sense.
Thank’s for pointing that out,it’s amazing how many people who mostly raid 10s are considering 25s easier just because they have traipsed through the lower spire in a pug.
There is a bloody good reason 25 mans have the best gear/mounts/titles in WotLK, it’s because the content is a LOT more difficult.
Now if Blizz actually succeed in their goal of equal tuning then the gear deserves to be the same, but they wont, it’s just not possible, and it will be 25 mans that suffer because of it in the long run.
I knew you’d have something sensible to say about all this. Bravo.
Hrm. The epeen wavers will leave 25 mans in droves, I predict, since they don’t like difficult progression, prefer to be carried, and only show up for farm nights… that is, generally taking the path of least resistance to the leetest gear.
Formerly being strict (no 25s gear allowed) 10 man raiding kept most of the epeeners at bay, because they wanted the best gear score, and you don’t get that with current 10 man loot. But in Cata it seems as though 10 mans will be today’s 25s without the hassle of trying to find enough people who are willing to show up on time. Which would then be the path of least resistance.
Perhaps I should switch to 25s.
They may leave the 25s in droves but they will find it hard to enter a 10 man group as an epeen waver.
In our 25s we’re not in a position to pick and choose who gets to go, often times any body in a spot is better than no body. In the 10s, an individual’s contribution is more significant and easier to see, as is their fail. We hold people more accountable in our 10s.
Tying it back in to the social networking post, it’s far easier to tolerate the epeen waver as an anonymous face in the sea of 24 others. In a 10, I want to enjoy the company of the 9 others.
I think you really overestimate the importance of gear and how it should be impacting your strategies (basically it shouldn’t). I can’t imagine what these special ‘interesting difficulty curves’ would be or how they’d be related to gear. I mean, how is it that if you had better gear from 25 mans you wouldn’t have needed a DK to juggle kinetics (and apparently hitting pet attack is hard)? Not seeing what gear has to do with any of that.
The 10 and 25 mans in cata are still going to be slightly different versions of the same fights so I really don’t get what you’re trying to say about 10 mans feeling like another version of 25 mans. That’s what they are and will continue to be.
Also I don’t think ZA was tough for the hardcore raiding crowd. It was tough for my then current guild, but they were a more casual 25m guild basically.
Our warrior tank, for example, is still using a 232 shield to tank the Lich King. Our holy paladin used a naxx-10 mace right into hardmode ToC. This is more RNG loot than anything, but couple sub-optimal gearing options with sub-optimal raid comps leads to some very creative strats to take down bosses.
The gear isn’t the only factor. It’s raid comp and gear.
Kara was a 10man raid. ZA was a 10man raid. ICC-10 isn’t a 10man raid, it’s a gutted 25-man raid with 15 less people.
ZA was ruthlessly hard. To master that place took at least as much effort as beating Kael’thas and Vashj. Trying to go in there with a Kara group was fruitless, you’d get a boss or two down, maybe. You had to bring the best you had to get through there and beat all the challenges.
Gear definitely makes a huge difference. Say in ToC10 I am standing in the fire on the first NR beast (yes standing in the fire is bad I know). I can stand there for a second or two, take a hit of damage and walk out. In ToC 25 man, with the gear I had at the time, fire under me and I move. There is not question. One tick and I am dead, I know this because I died in under 3 seconds from it in 25 man, while in 10 man I finished casting a healing spell and then hotted myself up as I walked out.
Also if gearing doesn’t affect strategies then explain the Sarth 3D zerg? Couldn’t really do that prior to overgearing that content. Or explain to me how a group of 10 guys went into 25 man ulduar and downed FT using only demolishers. I’m not saying we lived by much, I’m just saying it happened and there was absolutely no strategy involved whatsoever.
I fro one do not look forward to the new raiding System in Cataclysm.
In my opinion its just impossible to make 10 and 25s feel the same. I agree, Zul Aman was fun and in some way “hard”, but according to Blizzs new Policy “bring the Player not the Class” a 10 Man Raid like ZA will not be implemented anymore (i.e you can’t do this Boss without a Holy priest..)
25s are balanced around the availability of more Classes and Speccs. And even with the Munching of Classes come Cataclysm (mages get BL wohoooooo!!) i still think it will be either the 10Mans OR the 25s that will give you that epic felling where you tremble and your Heart races wenn you finally defeat that one Boss…
10s and 25s shouldn’t feel the same, is the thing. That’s part of the problem, with 10s feeling like lobotomized 25s.
25s and 10s should feel very distinct from each other, yet still both be viable raiding options.
With raid buffs being spread around (again) and toning them down somewhat so they aren’t all-important anymore, hopefully this means Blizzard will be able to tune everything much tighter.
There really isn’t any reason 10s should be easier to do than 25s.
I personally like the change, I greatly prefer 10mans anyway. People just seem to screw around more in 25’s and you don’t always know everyone in the raid.
How did your frost dps compare with arcane?
Ugh, it was terrible! Pulling 6k on fights I ordinarily soar along at 8k or so as arcane. The change was dreadful. Most of that I attribute to my own lack of skill as a frost mage. I mean, last time I raided as frost was when naxx-10 was current content.
My gear isn’t exactly optimized for it either, and the spec was thrown together literally in thirty seconds, so there’s probably some mistakes.
Still. Averaged 2k less than I pull as arcane, though some were massively skewed differences. Sindragosa, for instance, I pull significantly more (over twice as much) than I did as frost (which surprised me, as my elemental never ever stops casting on that fight).
Dreamwalker, too. For that one I think it’s the faster nuking (arcane blast has no travel time) that lets me “land” more spells than I do as frost.
*pat pat* It’s okay, not everyone can be amazing at Frost *hair flip*. Only kidding.
It’s all about the opening 40 seconds (pre-pull Speed pot, MI+IV+Trinket, Cold Snap after first DF, refresh IV after the first wears off). If something messes that up (and there’s a lot of fight mechanics that can do so in ICC), you’re going to take a big hit and it only goes down from there.
Being able to abuse latency on FoF makes a difference as well. All in all, it’s a mess of a spec. And I love it.
Thanks. For once, Critical QQ is not living up to its name (or perhaps, QQing about the QQ?). I think a lot of people just don’t like change, period. They automatically assume the worst.
There’s been some changes that I thought were going to be bad, and turned out to be bad: limited attempts, for instance. Guess what? Blizz agreed after seeing the effects and got rid of it. But it could have possibly been something that turned out super amazing and if Blizz hadn’t at least tried it we would have never known right?
Don’t be worried that you won’t be able to get enough points. Currently, the badges are balanced at maximum allowable weekly badge rate: that includes both voas, 10 and 25 man ICC, random every day, ICC weekly, raid weekly, and so on. They’ll balance PVE gear cost with the amount of points you can farm in mind. Specifically, the amount of points you will get in a 25 man, which will be more than 10 mans. Tbh, I’d be more worried that 10 mans will die off than 25s. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but its certainly more likely than the death of 25s.
I also agree with Euripidies that by just having the same fights in 10 and 25, you get some really weird strats. Back when deathwhisper was hard, if you didn’t have the right melee/caster setup (or a decurser), that boss could be ridiculously hard. Same with Saurfang – you’d have to call it if you didn’t have enough ranged/kiters. Those things were just never a problem in 25s because unless you had a raid full of rogues and fury warriors or something you’d always have at least a few players who could always do that part of the fight. your DPS setup can swing wildly, if you have, say, a bunch of melee and few to no of the right melee buffs, or vice versa. I remember when my warrior tank was the only AP buff in the raid, so I had to sacrifice the health from my commanding shout (and we needed every ounce at that point) so that our melee heavy raid had a shot at doing a fair job at DPS.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but I’ll say it again:
There is still an advantage to running 25 mans. Gearing up efficiency.
If I recall the release well enough, they said they were going to increase the Loot to Player ratio for 25 mans. More gear per player means your 25 man raid will be “geared” faster, and thus advance through raiding content faster.
Very true.
Consider that even if the gear drop ratio between 10s and 25s is the same (2 drops per boss in 10man, 5 drops per boss in 25s, for instance), both sizes of raids are going to be drawing from the exact same loot pool.
Thus, on 25, there are more chances for the precise piece of gear you want to drop.
[…] raid stuff Cata raid changes: for what I would probably say anyway, see Euripedes here. 10man raiding never really felt like raiding an instance for 10 players. Instead, we were […]
[…] 29, 2010 by DarthRegis Well, a few of the blogs I read have chimed in with their thoughts on the changes to raiding for Cataclysm. A few other blogs with their take on the matter have […]
Ok lets see.. there’s approx 25 frost badges per full run from ICC. Running both the 10m and 25m that means approximately 50 frost badges per week just off that alone.
If they are not going to raise the badge drop count to 50 on a single ICC lockout then yes, we are losing out on some badges. If they lower the badge cost per item from vendors, it won’t be so bad.
I think a lot of people are scared of change. I’ve seen so much crying on the forums about Blizzard changing small things and I’m sure this will be met with lots of QQ-ing too. In my opinion; if it doesn’t work, I’m sure Blizzard will find a quick solution. I doubt they would want to risk people leaving their game. We’ll see what the future brings and how it works out 🙂
I totally agree about the raiding scheme. There is never anything that is perfect but I think this gives everyone an opportunity to progress in the game.
Since I’m more into the PVP of late it doesn’t affect me much but I do hope it will make a more inviting structure to raiding for everyone.
Antlergirl, I don’t think folks will leave the game..most are WOW addicts and will just complain for a while and re-adjust hehe. Thats what I’d do:)
This comment is unrelated to your post.
I just observed that your blogs have many comments. There are many blogs out there and most don’t reach 10 comments. Or even 5. For some, not even 1.
[…] raid changes: for what I would probably say anyway, see Euripedes here. 10man raiding never really felt like raiding an instance for 10 players. Instead, we were […]
[…] raid changes: for what I would probably say anyway, see Euripedes here. 10man raiding never really felt like raiding an instance for 10 players. Instead, we were […]
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Осуществляется выезд массажиста на дом в пределах Санкт-Петербурга.
Массаж общий: 60 мин. Цена: 1300 руб.
Массаж спины: 30 мин. Цена: 700 руб.
Массаж ног: 20 мин. Цена: 500 руб.
Массаж рук: 20 мин. Цена: 500 руб.
Массаж воротниковой зоны: 20 мин. Цена: 500 руб.
Антицеллюлитный массаж: 30 мин. Цена: 700 руб.
Звоните: 8-(952)-363-36-32 Роман Александрович
Компания недвижимости и строительства Ардо-Н, принимает на работу риелторов, для работы на дому (квотный вариант). Посещаете офис по желанию, работаете, полностью на “свой карман”! Мы даем вам доступ к базам Квартирный вопрос, Аренда-Питер, БАН СПб, N-Market и ЕМЛС, даем необходимые документы с логотипами и печатями агентства, вам будет дано право посещать офис для заключения договоров, а также, принимать платежи от юридических лиц (от организаций). Если хотите, невозбраняется совмещать и заниматься как продажей, так и арендой недвижимости.
Наши цены (сумма за месяц):
Пакет 300 руб:
– Доступ к базе Аренда-Питер;
– Доверенность;
– Агентское соглашение;
Пакет 500 руб:
– Доступ к базам БАН СПб, Аренда-Питер и Квартирнику;
– Доверенность;
– Агентское соглашение;
– Пять комплектов документов;
Комплект 1000 руб:
– Подключение к базам БАН СПБ, Аренда-Питер и Квартирнику;
– Доверенность;
– Агентское соглашение;
– Десять комплектов документов;
– Пять постановок в Квартирный Вопрос;
Важно: 1 комплект документов – включает два договора найма + соглашение об оказании услуг + соглашение о разделе комиссии.
Дополнительные опции к Комплектам:
Дополнительная публикация в базу “Квартирный Вопрос”: +100 руб.
Дополнительный комплект документов: +100 руб.
База EMLS: +1000 руб. мес.
База НМаркет: бесплатно!
Наш телефон: г. С-Петербург +7 (951) 661-5120