See, here’s the thing. Sylvanus is a rather clever woman, overall.
So I ask you this: how did she miss something as huge as the betrayal of a huge number of apothecaries that, ostensibly, worked for her directly? How did she miss an entire plot designed to oust or kill her? How did she miss her own right hand demon thing plotting to take over her position in order to carry out the will of the Burning Legion?
I propose that she didn’t miss any of that.
I propose that she was very well aware of all of it.
I propose that she planned all of it.
Consider first the direct consequences of the Undercity Battle.
Let’s say Sylvanus was in charge of the weaponized plague used at the Wrathgate from the start. Let’s say all those “rogue” apothecaries were working for her all along.
What’s the easiest way to prevent all those people from ever telling their story? Why, brand them traitors and kill them all of course.
What’s the easiest way to do that without casting any suspicion on yourself? Why, get someone else to brand them all traitors, and then get someone else to kill them all for you.
Bonus points: what is the best way to test how a given fortification would hold up in a siege?
The answer is, of course, to lay siege to it.
Sylvanus got to experience both what an internal infiltration and an external invasion would look like. Not a small scale, war games invasion either, but huge, full fledged armies battling it out. And she got to see all of that first hand.
Meaning, of course, she can now make modifications and adjustments to the city, having experienced first hand the city’s strengths and weaknesses against multiple forms of invasion.
Consider second that Sylvanus, like any good leader, looks beyond her own personal vendettas. Her primary stated goal is, of course, to see the end of the Lich King.
Explain, then, the massive, imperialistic expansions of the Forsaken these past few years if their only goal is to revengeance the Lich King. Sylvanus knows that the Lich King won’t last forever, that someday he will be extinguished, and then… what? What then?
Sylvanus is in a similar position as the scourge in my last wild speculation post.
Nobody likes the undead. Their enemies misunderstand them and will kill them on sight. Their allies are mistrusting, fair weather friends at absolute best. What happens when the proverbial excrement hits the proverbial fan? For the forsaken, it means they’ll be in a hostile world, surrounded by enemies with no friends.
Solution? Exactly the same thing as the Scourge – make yourself appear to be less of a threat than you really are.
Enter the Battle for the Undercity, stage left.
Sylvanus lost her city, “nearly died”, and then was in such a weak position she couldn’t take back what was hers on her own. She had to go to Orgrimmar and ask, nay, beg for help.
Do you see how incredibly weak that makes her look? Especially to the likes of Garrosh.
By allowing the Undercity to fall, Sylvanus simultaneously places more mistrust on her own people and makes them appear to be a significantly weaker friend/foe.
The reason why more mistrust is good for the forsaken is because it forces the horde to keep a much closer eye on them. All the abomination guards are gone from the Undercity, and replaced with orcs.
Obviously a good move on the part of the greater horde. Placing their own troops in the undercity rather than letting them guard themselves means the greater horde can keep much tighter control over the actions of the forsaken.
Unless, of course, that’s exactly what Sylvanus wants them to think they’re doing.
First major advantage, by allowing the horde to think they have greater control over the situation, they naturally become far less suspicious. If strange things were going on, the guards are right there and would have seen it, right?
Right, of course.
The relative threat level of the forsaken is simply lower. With legions of orc troops in the undercity, the greater horde can rest easy that the Undercity is firmly controlled.
Essentially, Sylvanus has proven to the greater horde that the forsaken aren’t a substantial military threat anymore. This is an unimaginably huge advantage.
It’s gone now, but there was a screenshot showing the forsaken invasion of London (or whatever that werewolf place is called). It showed the forsaken fleet and… the horde gunship?
Again, major win for the forsaken. The forsaken get to keep right on expanding their empire with their mighty military, but the rest of the horde is blinded to it. And lending their military to the forsaken to directly assist them to boot.
Classic strategy, really. The greater horde thinks they’re in control, never realizing just how thoroughly they’re being used, the entire time playing directly into the best interests of the forsaken.
GG, Sylvanus, GG.
/tinfoil hat
Even better, the Horde guards ‘defending’ UC mean the Forsaken army can be somewhere else, using the true best defense.
Some silly part of me believes that Sylvanas isn’t going to backstab the Horde. She’ll use it, she’ll expand, she might even kill Garrosh (we can dream), but I still have that wishful thinking.
On the other hand, they’ve experienced death, absolute enslavement, and are now beset by enemies on all sides. It’s unlikely that they have particularly nice outlooks.
Also consider this: one of the major problems of the forsaken is manpower. Sure they inherited a small part of the scourge’s main strength in that they can recycle enemies into troops, but they are limited to making abominations and that’s it. When a legitimate forsaken is lost, you can’t replace them by converting more scourge since they’re all packed up in northrend, supposedly guarded by Bolvar. That being said, with the upcoming cataclysm the forsaken held zones and most obviously their hometown and tirisfal glades have suffered little to no damage (the tirisfal glades map is changed only by the addition of a road), so you could say that, while for example humans lost a great number of men in whatever happened in SW that caused the park to be obliterated, the forsaken suffered very few casualties in the turmoil compared to the other races. This makes their sudden expansion in all directions kind of believable, especially when you realize they held the smallest territory of all the races and have much more backing from the greater horde then before. TBH the only (meta) reason that they won’t conquer gilneas is faction balance, since the alliance (sans night elves who come to help immediately) seems more interested in conquering territories in kalimdor.
Also I think Sylvanas is spelled with an A instead of U :)
There’s another theory, Alliance-side, that posits Jaina Proudmoore as the evil mastermind behind everything. Maybe they’re working together…or the same person. O.O
There is an intermediate version of this theory, which is the one I’d buy into. Sylvanas knew about the new plague, but didn’t know about the coup Varimathras was planning in the wake of its use.
I’m not sure the price of having your entire home city occupied by Kor’kron is worth the benefits.
Came here thinking I was going to find an elaborate butt-joke, since you spelled it Sylvanus.
Guess I was wrong.
O HO!
Pure genius. :)
Here’s something else to think about: the forsaken are literally a dying race. So what if the plague she is developing is one to kill her enemies and make them into forsaken? If Arthas can do it, why can’t Sylvanas?
Wellll … lemme play Devil’s Advocate for a moment.
GIVEN that Onyxia ran Stormwind into the ground, for many years, IN PLAIN SIGHT. That it required the clever escape of one of her prisoners to expose her. That NOBODY seemed to notice until Windsor make his way in there and pointed out the obvious.
I think that there’s a good argument right there that Blizz isn’t as clever – in the storytelling sense – as you want to give them credit for.
Maybe Sylvanas didn’t notice all this stuff going on under her nose because she was drinking the same koolaid that Fordragon was! Maybe Blizz laid out a few necessary story elements but had neither the time, inclination, or possibly skill (pick one, two, or all) to make it all gel.
Is it possible they might retcon some stuff? Would they ever? Have they ever? :)
Hey, I’d love for there to be a deep game under all that. But I’m a realist. I have to listen to Jaina’s dialog all the time. I KNOW what they’re capable of not doing.
They’ve retconned plenty, at least enough to get lorenerds up in arms every year or so.
I’d also point out that maybe it’s the humans and nobles of Stormwind that aren’t all that bright, not necessarily Blizzard. |^^|
One story I read (was it here? another blog? damned if I remember) is that WotLK-Garrosh is really Deathwing.
The thinking being that TBC-Garrosh was a pretty emo dude, happy to find out that his dad managed to be a hero. WotLK-Garrosh is a warmongering asshole.
So at some point maybe Deathwing replaced Garrosh and is intentionally driving the Alliance and Horde into war!
The reason I mention this… is because it goes right along with “Blizz isn’t as clever – in the storytelling sense – as you want to give them credit for.
Per the book Arthas, Silvanas was aware of the plague. Completely aware, as she saw first hand what it did from one of the apothecaries demonstrating it for her.
Also, she never really liked the demons, if you’ll recall from Warcraft 3. I could totally see her tricking Varithimas (sp?) into thinking that it was cool to bring out his friends so that he could be seen as the villian and be dispatched.
Anyone else notice how many forsaken refugees there were? Seems that, for a surprise attack from the inside, several made it to the safety of Org…
Awesome theory.
What we know for sure:
Sylvanas was the one who commissioned the New Plague and created the Royal Apothecary Society. The plague was Sylvanas’ creation, and the intended target was… everyone. Horde, Alliance, Scourge. The only “crime” was that Putress unleashed their weapon without Sylvanas’ consent, at the wrong time. All of this is plain as day in quests, books, etc.
You taking it further is very interesting. Whatever she’s up to, Sylvanas can’t be trusted!
I find that it is generally better to have your ENEMIES, not your ALLIES, be the ones to underestimate you. In the Forsaken’s case, the difference between the two might not be that great, but the point stands.
In this case, Sylvie (we’re on a first-name level of familiarity, see) losing control of the Undercity was a Very Bad Thing. It shows the Alliance that, whatever the Forsaken threat is, it’s unpredictable, uncontrolled, and highly dangerous.
In the real world, “rogue states” like Iran and N. Korea are far more feared than than giant, unfriendly, but largely stable powerhouses like China or Russia. We know the Chinese and Russians won’t do anything stupid; we’re much less sure of the others.
Let’s not forget that Varian got a firsthand look at the Undercity, and this probably cemented his hatred for the Horde and the Forsaken. It’s possible that Sylvie didn’t count on the alliance invasion, though.
Still, given the usual nature of Horde politics and the expected reaction of the Alliance, this would be a very risky move.
And what would the Forsaken want with Gilneas anyway?
In the case of the forsaken, I highly doubt the word “allies” really counts for much.
Maybe trolls and tauren are willing to swear blood oaths of fealty to Thrall and the greater horde, but forsaken? Loyalties beyond that to the Banshee Queen are extremely rare.
If this is a real world extrapolation, consider that in Azeroth terms, it’s more like North Korea backed up by Russia AND China, and both of those bigger nations are just as volatile and unstable as North Korea is.
Excellent theory.
All I care about is how it involves the blood elves. A majority of my toons are blood elves except for one Forsaken.
In all probability, if Sylvanas DOES break away from the Horde/kill them all, the blood elves will be spared. Don’t forget that before she was made a banshee, she was blood elf herself; she was killed defending the Sunwell from Arthas.
Technically high elf, but yes, the Forsaken and Silvermoon have tended to have a much closer relationship than either of them have with… well, pretty much everyone else.
Most of this occurred to me as well. The way Sylvanus phrased a few things during the wrathgate sequence made me very suspicious.
There is one thing. Don’t forget that if Sylvanus wishes induce a rebellion against the Horde, at some point, then she also will need the Forsaken to have a reason to back her. Even if she doesn’t wish for a rebellion she may need a reason to create an elite “militia” of her own and the current guards in the Undercity will give the Forsaken a very strong reason to dislike the Horde for being overly controlling. The more you try to control someone who wishes to be independent the more volatile they will become towards you.
I don’t think she planned it all out… I do however think she was aware of it and let things play out. In the Arthas book sylvanas is fully aware of the creation of the plague that was used in the wrathgate attack. In fact she is the one who had it created as vengeance against arthas. The plague used was one that would kill both those living and undead.
Allowing her pet demon to betray her meant that she could completely be rid of the burning legion’s potential influence as well as deal a blow to her enemies all while evading blame herself. And all she had to do… was nothing.
Well thought out and from the perspective of the forsaken, they truly are the odd man out and I think Mrs. Anus knows this. Much like you’ve speculated she knows that once the common enemy is gone no one has any other reason to keep the Forsaken around, in fact because every race has spent it’s focus on killing the “undead” it would only be the next logical step to COMPLETELY remove the “undead” threat from the world(of warcraft).
I love the Forsaken, I love the way you think, and I hope there is some great story behind all this….but then I remember it’s blizzard….
*sigh* space goats…ho!
That would be a Xanatos Gambit that would make the master of them very proud indeed.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit
idk if anyone remembers a quest from Dustwallow Marsh. where an apothecary Forsaken is helping the Grimtotem Clan it shows that they are not to be trusted. The forsaken will try to take gilneas to prove to garrosh that they could be trusted. But all the horde knew about the new plague since we help make it lol. but i guess that the Apothecary Society lied about what was it for.
[...] Over the next few days, more rumors trickled in, suggesting that the efforts of the RAS in Northrend had succeeded in perfecting the New Plague, and that it had been unleashed to devastating effect upon an unsuspecting battleground of Horde, Alliance, and Scourge troops. For some reason this had enraged the other races of the Horde, and Sylvanas had claimed that she knew nothing about it. Kivrinne didn’t believe that story at all. Kivrinne had only met her sovereign once, when returning the necklace she had found during her previous work in the Ghostlands, but her impression of the Banshee Queen was of someone far too observant and clever to have let something that big slip her notice. [...]
PK, you may not be far off.
Wow, I need to refer to the Art of Sun Tzu. Sylvanas is awesomely cunning. Orcs are not hard to trick anyway.