Inspiration comes from two places, I Sheep Things… and Righteous Orbs.
A guild is many things. A tag over your head you can be proud of. A collection of excellent players you love to play the game with. A guild bank a bunch of hardcore raiders congregate about. A vent server filled with discussion, abuse, commands shouted at a finely tuned war team, friendly discussion.
A guild can be as varied as the people that make it up, because ultimately, a guild is people. A guild is not a collection of data in pixels in a virtual world, it is something far more than that.
A song is more than just a series of noises at differing wavelengths. A book is more than a collection of really thin tree slices with ink scattered upon it.
The structure of guild, its virtual framework, is just that. A frame. What it is framing is entirely up to the people involved.
Without a picture, a frame is pointless junk. An empty husk, void of meaning.
This is why I have never understood guild loyalty. A guild is nothing without people, it isn’t real in any sense of the word. Why would somebody be loyal to something that can be destroyed instantly by single person typing /gdisband? Would you be loyal to a table? At least it would take effort to destroy a table!
Now, people… I can understand being loyal to people. I hold not one ounce of loyalty to the guild “For Whom the Bell Tolls”. I am, however, deeply loyal to the people who make up that guild. Not because we’re in the same guild, not because by some random coincidence we happen to have the same series of random text above our in-game names, but because the “virtual” relationship we have is real.
A guild might not be real. But the friendships you have with the people in that guild certainly are.
Most of For Whom has been raiding together for many, many years. I’ve only been raiding with them since our first baby steps on Hydross in SSC, I almost classify as a “new guy” to this group.
I can remember our raid leader playing a priest, dying to Void Reaver on his birthday, drinking heavily and cheering us on in vent. I can remember Uncas (that’s Warlord Uncas to you) refusing to spec BM because he hated it, staying with his marksman tree when every other raiding hunter on the server was beast master. I can remember Abigael the warlock spamming “IN THE WATER LIKE AN OTTER” as a raid warning whenever Lurker used Spout. I can remember raiding with the Merciless Glad staff, and the raid leader saying “ranged go stand next to Rip, he’s the huge pink dildo”.
This is ancient history to me. To many of For Whom, who’ve been raiding together since Blizzard was super duper excited about announcing the BRAND NEW 40-MAN RAID ONYXIA’S LAIR, stuff like Karazhan is still recent memory, and I’m still the new guy.
All of that, the memories we have, the friendships we form, the grudges we hold, all of that is real. We don’t say “remember how fun Anathema was”, we say “remember how much fun we had in Anathema”.
Wherever these guys go, I’m bound to follow at this point, simply because I quite enjoy their company.
I have stated before that I like raiding due to the complete puzzle aspect of it. Then why don’t I do the harder, more tightly tuned 25man content with more challenging fight mechanics? The puzzle aspect is definitely important, yes, but if all I wanted to do was puzzles I’d buy a sudoku book.
I like raiding, yes. But, I like raiding with people I like. Raiding is fun, but raiding with friends is exponentially more fun. Avoiding 25man guilds helps me stay away from cliques and all the other drama that comes from actually having a real difference between “core raiders” and “everyone else”.
I mean, a 10man guild isn’t drama free. There is simply significantly less of it, due to nothing else than the fact that there are less people who actually know each other quite well.
And before you ask, yes, everyone else in the guild is perfectly aware that I have a rather long standing blog. There’s even an RSS feed to it on the site, and some of them (hi ghostkid, did you get that thing I sent you?) have been readers here since I started the blog!
As a group, then, we are a collection of friends with a common guild tag. Well, most of us anyway.
When Rhii asks a question about loyalty to a fellow guildie, the question doesn’t make any sense to me. Harboring loyalty to someone else in the same guild is equivalent to harboring loyalty to someone else who happens to be sitting at the same table as I am. I don’t know them, I’m not their friend, I have absolutely no obligation to help them at all, certainly not for reasons of loyalty.
(Quick recap of Rhii’s post: a guildie joins a raid as a tank. This guy can tank and only tank, and stated that explicitly. Somehow the raid filled up with too many tanks, so this guildie was punted for being incapable of DPS. This guildie was then hurt when his fellow guild members didn’t drop out of the run.)
Group solidarity is important for some reason I can’t even pretend to understand. In the above situation, how I would have reacted as a “fellow guildie” depends entirely on my relation with the tank that was booted. If he was just some random member of the same guild I was? I wouldn’t even have batted an eye. Had he been a good friend, someone I had played with for many months?
Well, I would have spoken up in raid chat immediately. Something along the lines of “Thank you, %t, for showing me what a shit fucker you are. Thank you for sparing me the need to ever have to deal with your cock mongering again”, and then left the raid.
This is all hypothetical of course. I rarely PuG raids of any sort, as you can probably tell just by looking at my achievements and statistics. Such hypothetical situations are precisely why I rarely PuG and very rarely do 25man content, simply because I have near zero tolerance of douchebaggery.
Everything here is just about how I feel about my guild. I love the group I run with in my 10 man even if we are slowly making our way through ICC. We are there just to have a great time and score phat lootz.
We did run a 25-man with about the other half of the raid in another guild. I didn’t venture into their vent but what I heard from out guild chat is that is wasn’t a pleasant experience.
The only explanation I think I could have for guild loyalty for is PVP and BGs. We usually group like 5-8 people when go PVP. And its really fun rolling together as a group.
“When Rhii asks a question about loyalty to a fellow guildie, the question doesn’t make any sense to me. Harboring loyalty to someone else in the same guild is equivalent to harboring loyalty to someone else who happens to be sitting at the same table as I am. I don’t know them, I’m not their friend, I have absolutely no obligation to help them at all, certainly not for reasons of loyalty.”
I think you’re analogy is overly simplified. What are the objectives of the people at the table? Eat their own food? Or is a group task where everyone has a different skillset, all needed to complete the task?
I’m sure we’re socialized a bit differently. When I think about Rhii’s question, I think about team sports or a military unit. Whenever you get a new guy, they may not be your best friend…but he/she is wearing your colours or your crest. And say, like hockey, if someone starts to fuck with someone in your colours, you back them up. Even if you aren’t their buddy. You joined that guild (or team or unit) for a reason. You may be on the edge of the “picture”, but you’re now within “the frame”.
Sure, can get grouped with other teams or groups (ie: PUGs), but if someone from the ‘outside’ starts messing with your team, you still back them up. HOW you back them up is situational and often up for debate, but you back them up.
If you can’t support your team while you’re not entirely amongst your teammates, it will create the doubt that you can’t support your team at all. And that can be horrible for any hopes at group cohesion in the future.
First of all, I couldn’t agree more. Building loyalty (and respect) takes time, effort, shared hardship, and cooperation. It is not immediately bestowed upon anyone who happens to receive a /ginvite. I have to admit that I am insanely jealous of your guild and your relation to it. I have been in many guilds and almost all of them are full of douchebaggery, unfortunately.
re: guild member kicked from a raid: performance is performance. If the guy is pulling 2k DPS on Jaraxxus, he needs to get booted, and frankly should volunteer to be replaced. Know your role and if you can’t do it, be man enough to step aside.
That’s the thing – he did know his role. Tanking.
And then they brought in too many tanks. And booted him because he didn’t have a DPS spec. The raid organizers screwed up and they made him suffer for it. Why not boot one of the tanks that was brought in AFTER?
But that’s aside from Rhii’s question – Why didn’t his team back him up when he was treated unfairly?
Maybe I’m spoiled in a guild that is almost entirely RL friends. And those who aren’t RL friends have been with us for years, so they’re online friends. Anyone who’s new to the guild is a RL friend/relative of someone else in the guild. I may not have any direct loyalty to that person, but I have indirect loyalty, at the very least. (ie: “a friend of [whoever] is a friend of mine” mentality.)
Guild I’m in is roughly the same as yours, Regis. Everyone knows everyone, most know each other very well, most are on a first name basis, as in their real first name.
But I am not going to be loyal to someone just because they happen to wear the same colors I do. I’ll definitely be warmer towards them than I would to, say, some random idiot in trade, but I wouldn’t sacrifice my own personal gain on their behalf just because we belong to the same organization.
Well, when it comes to PuGs, the chances are I’m going to have to interact with a guild mate on a much more frequent basis. Even if don’t know them very well, yet. As such, it’s more important to have a healthier relationship with them than it is with a random group of players or even the chance to see new content.
If that means I have to sacrifice a low percentage shot at some gear (or whatever) to ensure cohesion is better and drama is minimal for the guild, I’ll gladly do it. It’s a bigger personal gain for me. Because eventually, some day down the road, that guild mate will remember that and back me up in a time of need. (Well, maybe not, but by taking those actions, I’ve increased the chances of that drastically.)
Oh yeah… another reason for “making that personal sacrifice” – I don’t feel I should reward a PUG with my epic presence, huge ePeen, and 1337 DPS for acting like douchebags. If they wanna be fuckholes, they can be fuckholes with someone else. Y
eah, I have some weird principles wired into my bleeding heart ways. :)
Euripedes, really? Are you serious? I mean, if I understand your response correctly, you’re saying when push comes to shove, every man (or woman) for themself. And, if that’s the case, then with all due respect, your just being a mercenary!
And, you know what? There is not a goddam thing wrong with that. Now, before anybody gets up on their high horse to start preaching about the woe is me friendship stuff, as in, friends don’t let friends drive dru….., err, friends don’t let friends get /kicked, I’ve got two words for ya – Bull Shit.
Listen, the guy (gal) got screwed and shouldn’t have gotten kicked. RL screwed up, no doubt; however, does that mean “in the name of all that is righteous and honorable and noble I hereby plunge myself upon my sword!” It seems that Euripedes thinks not, and you know what, I feel the same (as I wouldn’t expect any guildie of mine to /raidquit because I got booted).
Shit happens…move on…get in another raid…and… save your QQ’ing for your mommy – it is, after all, a cold world out there in Northrend.
People drop you like it’s nothing in real life, why would anyone expect loyalty in WoW?
A little further clarification so I don’t come across as an uncaring jerkwad.
Remember, we are talking about a PuG raid – not a guild run, not a friendly 5-man, boosting an alt or something along those lines. PuG raids are a breed apart and typically have no rules attached for those that join them. The RL is king and if you don’t like it, you can feel free to drop. As in no harm, no foul. On the other hand, there is typically no strings attached when it comes to loot either, as in, no DKP, suicide kings or other such loot system – you need, you roll, you win, you get – no hard feelings, just bizness, as they say.
Think of PuGs as pixillated darwinism (damn, that’s pretty good, might have to name my next guild that) and it becomes much easier on the morals.
You’re right, it is just a PuG. Chances are you’ll be able to find another one, as well. And if they’re really pixillated darwinism, it should also be that much easier to leave one for a guild member, who you’ll have more biznez ties with in the end, anyway.
If I booted raid member doesn’t care that you didn’t “jump on the sword” for him, that’s fine. But if he’s miffed that you didn’t support him, it’s justified as well.
“If I booted…” should read “If that booted…”
I would, however, sacrifice my own personal gain if it was “closing ranks” or what have you with someone I know rather well.
It’s really a question of how much a given individual means to me.
A random stranger on the bus? I wouldn’t even lift a finger to help them.
A friend of mine calls me in hysterics, asking for help to bury some guy they killed by mistake? I’d bring a shovel and as many plastic sheets as needed, no questions asked.
“It’s really a question of how much a given individual means to me.”
I guess it’s a matter of how we look at it or approach it. I don’t see it as them as an individual. I see them as a new teammate. And if I don’t support my team, my team won’t support me.
“A random stranger on the bus? I wouldn’t even lift a finger to help them.”
Is someone forgetting a recent winter storm? I apologize for that seeming really, really snide. But I’m sure you would have greatly appreciated it if just one person didn’t have that attitude.
That’s sort of my point in all this:
As you said, the thing that makes up your guild is the people. Then treat them like people. Not strangers. Even the new guy.
I have not forgotten. Indeed, that event proved to be the starting point of a huge chain reaction that has drastically changed my outlook on life in general.
Suffice to say I am a significantly different person now than I was, say, six months ago.
I’d really rather not discuss it at all, which seems stupid because I’m the one who brought it up.
I stopped playing on the Gilneas server back in December as my guild achieved new levels of douchbaggery, for lack of a better term. We should have just split into 10-man guilds considering that Team A (who progressed the fastest just for the bragging rights) rarely wanted to do 25-mans with Team B (who had more fun than progression) as they were deemed to be not good enough. It got to the point where Team A would start cherry-picking people from Team B during their progression, so that Team B couldn’t even run a raid. Many people got frustrated and stopped playing, including me. There are some people I missed running with, but I wasn’t fortunate enough to have the close ties that Euri does.
During my hiatus, I found out that some guys I bowl with regularly started playing WoW and I am patiently waiting for them to reach 80 so I can transfer my 80 gnome mage to their server. I have started playing again, creating a horde mage and got it to level 33 in just a few weekends. I can’t wait for these guys to get to 80. A guild tag is just that, only a tag. There is nothing better than playing WoW with close friends, regardless if they are in the same guild or not.
(On a side note, either I finally learned how to play this game after 5 years or they made a lvl 30 “elite” easier than the original game. I can’t say that I was ever able to solo a lvl 30 elite, panther in this case, as a level 30 mage back in the early days. It’s probably due the changes in talents and the addition of the Evoc glyph. loL!)
Bowling FTW! :D
Have to get out of the house occasionally. LoL!
In regards to PuGs, I avoid them like the plague. I can count positive PuG experiences on one hand in 5 years on play. It’s easier to just do something else or turn off the computer than to try raid with a PuG. In the last PuG I remember doing, I watched in amazement as the other mage spammed Scorch during the whole run and couldn’t understand why her DPS was so low when she had all of this crit. The mind just boggles…
I agree with you for the most part. Yes, a guild is about the people, but the people there, like DarthRegis said, usually are there for a similar purpose. If a guildie (especially a friend) requests for help and I’m not doing anything, I’ll see what I can do. Who knows, you might find a good friend in that new guildie that no one knows!
The people who are there are definitely the most important part. I currently have several RL friends of mine who recently server transferred over into my guild and have made it so much more fun for me. :)
Agreed – who would want to be in a guild without anyone else in it? (Note: this does NOT include banker alts’ guilds.)
But think how fast officer meetings would go….
All those in favor of solo raiding Hogger?
Aye.
Aye’s have it. Next item.
Officer meetings? No, no, for a decision that big you would need a whole guild meeting…
Person 1: All those in favor of using CC in the hogger fight?
Person 1: Aye.
Person 1: All those not in favor?
Person 1: Aye.
Person 1: You can’t vote twice!
Person 1: Yes I can, I’m the GM.
Person 1: I’m the GM too!
Person 1: All those thinking this is way off topic?
Person 1: AYE!
I’m going to weigh in and say I agree with DarthRegis. Maybe that tank that got kicked from the raid was new to the guild and you didn’t know him all that well, but did the raid leader know that? No. Could he see that he was sporting your guild tag? Yes. Would it have made an impressive statement if, after booting the tank, everyone with the guild tag over their head dropped raid? Maybe, maybe not…but it’s something they could think about while waiting to fill the vacated raid spots. And next time the guy is looking to boot someone from his raid because he grabbed one too many tanks, or healers, or dps….he might think twice about it being someone from your guild.
If I recall the story correctly (too lazy to read it again), the Raid Leader did end up requesting that the group-dropping healer come back. She, of course, refused because she disagreed with what they did.
Even the one person leaving sent a message. Not sure if the RL quite understood, but the message was at least sent.
I just had the recap version and it didn’t sound like anyone left. That’s pretty cool that the healer left for a couple reasons. One because it does send a message since healers aren’t always easy to replace. And two, because…it just seems so in-character for a healer to be the one sticking up for and taking care of his guildie.