I’d like to direct you to a post over at Righteous Orbs, though really the only relevant part to my own post is this part:
When I hear the words ‘Flame Leviathan’ I’m thinking kraken meets phoenix, you know? I’m think tentacular wings dripping fire. I’m thinking awe. I’m thinking terror.
I am most assuredly not thinking GOLF CADDY.
If you don’t read Righteous Orbs yet, sucks to be you because NaNaDuraCell or whatever it’s called hates you.
Anyway, point is, Tamarind went into Ulduar-25 without even knowing what Flame Leviathan looked like. Poor Tamarind had no idea what was going on, what to expect, nothing.
Changing gears a little bit, I was chatting with me DK friend, and was all “didja see the green dragon fight?!” and he was all “Nah, man, I never look at that stuff” and I was all “What? Why not?” and he was all “I prefer the new fights to be a surprise, you know?” and I was all “. . . ?”
See, to me, going into an instance without knowing what to expect is equivalent to going into an instance with unkempt gear or terribad talents. Knowing your own class, having the right gear and talents, and knowing everything you can about the next boss fight are all one and the same to me.
Say the guild is doing Jaraxxus for the very first time. I’ve already watched the fight videos, usually both the 25 man and 10 man versions, have read up on the strats, and studied (if possible) every single ability he has. Before 3.2 was even live, I already knew every trick to the Jaraxxus fight.
This is how I raid. When Ulduar was on the horizon, I had effectively stopped raiding and had no plans to continue. I had no plans to ever do Ulduar, or seek out a guild with which to raid it. But I watched the fights for every single boss in there anyway.
Every single thing possible I can do outside of a raid to be successful, I do it. I theorycraft. I perfect my gear, my rotations, my mana consumption. I spend hours on test dummies and any and all theorycrafting tools available to me. I watched the Leotheras fight over a dozen times before I actually, physically did the fight.
Not knowing as much as possible about every fight long before you get to it? Not watching all the PTR streams for every boss being tested? That is insane! Why would you not do that? You’re intentionally crippling yourself!
Aren’t you?
Me DK friend gets along perfectly fine without obsessing over boss strats. Tamarind got along fine, if panicked, without having already created a mental DBM timer for every boss ability before he actually saw the boss in person.
I explained earlier what raiding is for me, and I think this attitude of “you must reach batman levels of preparedness” falls into the same boat. Showing up to a boss fight without having the slightest idea what’s going to happen is incomprehensible. I cannot even imagine raiding that way.
Saying “yeah, I don’t watch the PTR boss fights” is like saying “yeah, I can levitate at will if I drink at least one glass of milk a day.” Something so utterly foreign that the brain simply shuts down and daydreams about a sitcom starring paperclips.
And yet…
Obviously Tamarind isn’t full of fail. Obviously he didn’t single-handedly wipe the raid over and over again due to ignorance. In fact, he’s at the point now where he can heal HToC with a fishing rod equipped, and do it so well that the rest of the group doesn’t even bother to inform him because he’s so damn good at what he does, they thought he had left the fishing rod equipped intentionally*.
You know how the saying goes. If you think everyone around you is crazy… chances are, you are the crazy one.
So is it me? Am I the one going off the deep end into hyper obsession land? Am I the one (le gasp) playing the game wrong? Or am I simply playing it my way, a way that leaves other people thinking “what the hell is wrong with that dude?”
* Seriously, the hoops healers in good gear will jump through to have something interesting to do. Our holy paladin will often pop a second set of worms in the trash leading up to Hodir in an effort to stave off boredom. I’ve known healers to encourage tanks to take off their pants so they get hit more.
In a way I can see that. I mean, when you reach a point where you can heal HVH start to finish using only power word: shield as a holy priest, chances are you’re going to be rather bored. But what if something goes wrong? OH THE EXCITEMENT! But what if something goes really wrong? What if you disconnect? THEN EVERYONE DIED BECAUSE OF YOU AH MA GAHD! This is why you PvP, people!
Just… if you’re a healer, don’t PvP alone. It’s not safe. Grab a friend to protect you. You are infinitely more powerful with a guard dog willing to die to keep you standing.
If you aren’t a healer, find one. Find a healer, and stick with them. If anything even shoots funny looks at your healer, destroy them. Destroy them utterly. Leave nothing but a bloody smear on the ground to attest to their impunity.
-=-
The lack of updates recently has been due entirely to sickness. I’ve been riotously (that’s a word?!) sick since Saturday, and every day brings new, hilarious symptoms, like coughing up blood or intense abdominal pain. I swear to every deity ever that if this turns out to be swine flu I will personally find a child with a balloon and ruin all of their hopes and dreams.
On the subject of bored healers: When my guild does VoA we only let one person heal for Archavon and blame that healer if anything goes wrong. It never does, except when I pop DI on him.
We’re almost to the point where we just let Judgement of Light heal everything!
When we even bother to kill him these days, which we really don’t.
As part of the start of each patch, our guild likes to make a pack not to read up on fights as to learn things as they come and figure things out for ourselves, its fun and exciting. Of course when we get stuck we do look to videos and read posts that comment about what to do when, but its fun to wipe cuz you don’t know to purge the buff off Jarraxus.
Its always hardest the first night but after that we have the pride of knowing we figured somethings out for ourselves.
I’m split on this. I love seeing new bosses, and the first time Kolo jumped up I bout pooped my self. But on the other hand…
Yeah. I read the strats, watch videos, think about it, know it – live it. Of course, our guild is pushing server firsts (we fail at it, but we try) whenever we can, so not knowing the fights kind of sets you back.
Of course with the hard modes not being unlocked until you complete the easy modes, you can relax a little.
I disagree with you here, but I suspect it’s largely based on the people one plays with and one’s own playstyle.
Most recently, I remember going into regular Violet Hold at 73 with no idea what was in it (this was in the opening days of Wrath, of course). It was intensely fantastic to learn new fights on the fly and adapt in the blink of an eye.
Granted, I probably wouldn’t do that for a raid…
Yep I disagree too. I like to see a boss for the very first time myself, not in videos on in strategy articles. The experience is much more interesting when you can form your own opinions.
Then your ability to win the fight is down to your own adaptability.
Chalk it up to a difference in priorities.
Some people enjoy the experience of seeing something new.
Some people like adapting to a new challenge.
Some people like getting gear.
Some people like a high quality of execution.
What seems crazy is different from each perspective.
For me, I do bone up on the fights.. by asking people about them over vent. I get down the basics, such as “does such and such attacks for 2 minutes then goes into this mode, then goes back to that attack again”, and then ask about the other details.
Something about hearing it from a human mouth and being able to ask questions just makes it all come together for me. It’s not that I don’t read up on a new fight, I do, but I get the details down better by talking to someone about it.
I’m that way with everything, though. If I have a class where a teacher, who isn’t full of absolutely boring fail, details a section verbally, then I remember it without having to study. Of course, there’s those courses where the teacher doesn’t tell you everything in class and you have to read up on something before a test…
Talking to someone about a raid or instance is, for me, the best study guide ever.
/shrug, just me though. I’ve always been a verbal learner.
Also, the coughing up blood thing? Yeah, pretty much my whole family is in health care and if it were me coughing up the blood they’d be screaming, “GET TO THE F*CKING HOSPITAL, NOW!!” So, uhh, get that checked?
Also, I had a healer in H HoL wearing nothing but boots, a necklace, some bracers, trinkets, and a swashbuckler’s shirt to tempt me.. while a half-naked female human priest was rather a nice distraction, the fact that we never wiped with a tank who only had half of their gear on (the DPS half) and nothing else, made the run more fun and laughs than I’ve had in a long time.
I just used the same paragraph transition twice, didn’t I?
/facepalm
I really hate knowing what is going to happen in an instance before I actually enter it. But then I’m the player that gets distracted by the pretty scenery, and plays on RP servers.
Three strike rule. First time it has to be virginal, second time i ask around for tips in game, third time I go looking for all the data available.
I went Aracne because I like the visuals of the arcane spells…. I went Frist because I like the shatter graphics…. for me immesion is fun, stats aren’t.
Of course having said that I theory-craft the arse out of my Tankadin.
First, if your coughing blood and have abdominal pain YOU NEED TO SEE A DOCTOR!! For gods sake man…
Next, Obsession is only a problem if you let it colour your view of others, as long as you can be blissfully obsessing without harassing your fellow raiders it’s all good.
I’m pretty sure that swine flu doesn’t include any balloon related symptoms.
I hope you feel better soon.
Canadian health care is pretty dumb. Nearly all the so called medical professionals are incompetent buffoons, and… well, our healthcare is free, and we get what we pay for.
Our response to swine flu? “Wash your hands and go home”.
My sister was almost killed because the doctors (PLURAL) misdiagnosed a nearly one hundred pound malignant tumor as the common cold.
And when it turned out to be life-threatening?
We only had to wait 6 weeks to get the surgery done.
Oh wait, sorry, that was for the CAT SCAN.
I don’t particularly trust any of them.
Umm, you need to come to Saint Mary’s Hospital in Grand Rapids (Michigan) if you or your sister ever have a serious ailment like that, or of some other horrific kind, again (and if you have the money to pay for private treatment).
It’s where I live and work, and you’ll get a scan within 24 hours (probably less) and Doctors who DON’T SUCK!
Seriously, my Dad’s one of the private docs who do surgeries there… COME! They can be trusted!
hey im from G- Rap too
Went to high school 2 blocks from there
On the note of raids and being prepared and such :
I was leading a raid this week (10 TOC) and 5 people dint show. I’m like no biggee ill just get guildies that arent as geared, my dps can usually carry 1 or 2 lowbies. Oops that was a bad idea. I told this one dk to go watch movies on tankspot and 10 minutes later he tells me he cant find tham and I should just explain them to him as we are starting the raid. The first thing that came to mind is omg we are going to wipe…..and we did several times for 2 hours without a kill before i just called it. I then thought why do I put myself through this and I pugged cleared it in like an hour and a half. Sometimes I wonder if I am doing something wrong or if I should just stop trying to help lowbies, darwinn would approve I’m sure, I think he played a mage too. Are there any realms where I can switch to, mine is starting to wear on me?
I like watching boss videos, they make me laugh, I did it while giving blood at the RC one time.
Canadian Health Care isn’t that bad, at least not universally. I’m in Central Canada and our wait times are pretty light we usually get in in a timely fashion and are given the help we need. Wherever you are, I think change in scenery is in order. Try the Prairies, lifes just better out here. =)
I’m in the prairies, Alberta to be exact.
Yeah, if you winced just now, I know exactly what you mean.
I’m with Markos here, at least partly. I hate watching videos, I can’t pay attention for so long (seriously, boss fights are BORING if you’re not actually fighting). What’s best for me is reading about it (just the general things about the fight plus what my role will be), then actually see the fight, then (after the first wipe/kill) talk to someone who knows it better. ‘Why did we die when he did that?’, ‘When am I supposed to click on this?’ and so on. Written descriptions don’t paint a good mental image and videos drive me nuts, so I will always go in the first time pretty much a noob. …and since I’m a healer, I can wing it for a long time, don’t need to worry about kill orders and the like…
I didn’t prepare for Ulduar at all. I haven’t read or watch anything. Even more, i healed there in 10m version with my shammy, and i haven’t healed anything that is any hard before. Yet i can say that my fails weren’t based on the fact i didn’t know tactics, they were based on that i didn’t know how to heal. Still we made progress there really fast.
When i came to ToC, i didn’t know anything except “there will be some pvp-like fight that everyone hates, and those hordes will be almost immune to aoe”. It was a pug, and we cleared it in two days on a server where pugs aren’t frequent and successfull most of times.
Why i did it two times and will do the same when IC comes? Well. I want it to be a surprise. I want to see bosses in-game first, not on video.
And i think it will not gimp me. Not because i’m super fast with learning bosses and will be perfect on first tries. It’s cause i’m slow with learning, and i will not learn anything till i try it in-game. Doesn’t matter will i read or not, i will fail first times. So what for do i need to lose a surprise if i will not gain anything?
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that part of why Tam doesn’t do “prep research” for raids is due to the fact that he’s on an RP server, and it just wouldn’t fit in with the character line of development.
Also, I kinda just want to marry Tam, so perhaps I’m overly protective of my British crush.
However, I’m like you… if I’m going into a new place, I usually read about it in my excitement. Although, I’m not exactly on the cutting edge of progression either, so as someone who reads a lot of blogs, it’s not like I can even get away from reading strats.
But I’ll let you in on a little secret. As a healer, I have no idea what goes on in any of those fights anyway. I pay no attention to the boss explanations. It’s awful, I know, but I’m usually counting my vanity pets while the RL is explaining the fight. My directions are as follows: HEAL SHIT
Boss videos and strats and all that are good, but they really only click into place for me after I’ve actually done the fight, so a new fight is a new fight anyway for me whether I’ve done research or not.
Swine flu isn’t that bad. I had both it and pneumonia (and with my asthma both of them are more serious than normal) and I got better after only a week. The pneumonia was much worse : /
Also, I had fun skirmishing with your pally in WG the other day, if you remember a little snowy-bearded gnome frost mage🙂
I do, actually!
I even saw you in Isle of Conquest yesterday!
I don’t think you’re crazy for being so prepared. You are just caught up in the meta-game of WoW. Personally, I can’t stand to read strats or watch videos before raiding because I find PvE to be so fascinatingly boring to begin with that if I know what to expect I’m treading into the territory of suffering. When HToC first launched my friend pulled me in to heal a raid – I knew nothing about any of the fights and we downed the first three bosses with no trouble at all. PvE just isn’t that difficult. *shrug*
It’s very true that healers often do things to create a challenge. Lately I’ve been trying to see how fast I can get PuG groups through H Nexus. I warn them up front that I will be pulling things to the tank and start tagging mobs with FF just to keep things interesting. Our current record is 26 minutes.
It depends on the situation I’m in. If I’m running with a better skilled group then myself and they have more experience with the instance or the instance has been out for awhile then yes I look into all the boss fights.
With Ulduar, ToC and Icecrown… I’ve been knocking on the door since before the raid came out. I’m good enough at what I do that I can afford to go in blind. Besides the raid leader spends 30 mins before every new fight explaining every boss ability. Which is usually when I go get a drink, eat a sammich and play peggle.
After the first attempt I pretty much know what is going on.
I think it has to do with how people learn. I’m much more of a hands on type of person. I learn very quickly when I’m stuck in the position… but when someone is explaining or I’m reading up on a fight I tend to zone out.
Besides not knowing keeps the fights more interesting for longer.
Gah, I can barely stand brief fight explanations. Our raid leader sums up fights we know with “group 2 go left, group 1 right” or even less.
Like Northrend Beasts, he says “starting”. That’s it. I love it so.
Hope your feeling better, cause of you I’m pvping again with Arcane Shatter goodness.
The thing about theorycrafting, boss videos, start reading, min-maxing, and so on, is that this is only to eek out the last couple percent. Yes, it is effective. Yes, it is (mostly) required to do hard modes.
However, I don’t anymore. I puG a lot, and I don’t raid on a set schedule, I’ll go maybe once a month to ToC 10/25. I don’t feel the need to use epic gems, and some enchants are second best also. On my Rogue, I use Mongoose on my weapons, and do +8 to chest rather than +10. And you know what? I COULD add 2-300 dps by upgrading all my gems and chants, but the fact is, in a melee friendly 10 man, I typically (gear is a mix of all epics, from 200 to 245, average lvl 219 or so) pull 5k+, without AOE or gimmicks, just proper cooldown usage. New fights to me, I typically get along fine watching for crap, and watching my fellow raiders.
So, min-maxing has it’s place, but in non-HM fights, just knowing your class and knowing that fire hurts is enough to get by.
Underbridge made both points more succinctly than I ever could, but I’ll reiterate them
1) Get to a doctor!!!
2) The very fact that you wrote this column, ready to accept that you might be “the crazy one” demonstrates that no, you do not have a problem.
You have a remarkable set of gifts, Euripedes, and none of us want to see them lost. Get to a doctor.
I don’t think there’s anything innately wrong about playing the game the way you do, but I play the way your DK friend does. I enjoy the pseudo sense of accomplishment I get from figuring out the puzzles a game throws at me. I don’t get that sense of accomplishment simply by attaining a goal, I get it mostly from the process of figuring out how to get there. Simply executing a strategy someone else has figured out, like I’m going down a checklist, just doesn’t do much for me.
Also, in a cooperative gaming environment like WoW raiding, you’re only as good as your weakest member. And honestly, that’s not me even when I know nothing about a boss before I face him for the first time. I think most people learn best by doing, not by reading or watching, and no matter how much they prepare there’s still going to be wiping before they finally get it. I always learn what I need to learn in that time. So frankly there’s relatively little incentive for me to get gung-ho preparing for a fight, I’ll round into shape faster than my average teammate.
I don’t like being unprepared so I almost always at least read the strats if not watch the videos prior to entering the fight.
That said… the most fun I ever had learning an instance was the night that the 5-man ToC was released. A group of us went in with no add ons (that patch was brutal on adds) and no clue what to do. We had a blast figuring it out as we went.
I’m sure figuring out a 5-man is not on the same level as a 10 or 25, but it was still a really cool feeling to discover and learn it on our own. It made the success feel more like ours.
Rip,
On the subject of boss preparedness I’d like to respectfully disagree with you.
When a new instance/raid/fight is introduced to the game I try to walk in with as little knowledge as possible.
You see, it is only new once. If I watch the PRT videos and read every strat before patch day I am not testing my skill. I am testing my memory.
A party or raid fumbling around trying to actually figure out a fight takes skill, the ability to learn from mistakes, and creativity. Memorizing all of the scripted moves of the trash and bosses before one walks into an encounter eliminates the test of one’s metal.
I prefer to walk into a new place and look around a bit. I like see what the Blizzard design team has spent the past several months creating for me. I like to see if I actually know how to play my class and adapt to a brand new event as oposed to knowing where the fire will be while I rip through my shot rotation.
It’s only new once.
Seeing a preview of ‘new’ is like wrapping yor own Christmas presents. You know what’s in them, but you can’t play with the items until Christmas (patch) day.
/step off of soap box
Ghost
“I will personally find a child with a balloon and ruin all of their hopes and dreams.”
Are you sure you didn’t accidentally roll a mage instead of a warlock? Srsly, you’re the kind of mage a warlock could almost like. Almost.
😀
In other news, I’m gonna admit that I’m more in Tam’s camp of not reading (though I know it’s ZOMG bad) and not being full of fail as a result. Learning in real time gives me something to do while the rest of the group is failing even after watching the movies (not that they all do, but… lets be honest, with some people… movies/strats just don’t help. Only brute. force. death.).
After like one night of wipes, if we’re not getting it… then my research mode kicks into full gear. I just the challenge of going in blind first… otherwise I’d feel like I’m robbing myself of part of the fun.
I’ll read up on fights if I know I’m going there. If I end up someplace by accident or short notice, it’s too damn late to read anything.
I refuse to watch vids. 90% of them show the fight with crap graphics, wrong speed, and horrible HORRIBLE music. Look, I appreciate that you’re proud of killing X. But don’t post a “helpful” vid if there is no voice-over with instructions or warnings.
The way I generally prepare for Raids is that I will read up on the fight and watch some of the Tankspot.com videos. I honestly will not go out of my way to study each and every increment of damage that is put out by X ability, but I do like to have a good feeling to where I am going to be Tanking said boss and the mechanics of the fight.
Balance is the key for me when preparing.
Oh dear, I feel rather like your stupidity foil. I’m sure I sound less like an idiot in context … or maybe not.
For what it’s worth, that run was very much a “let’s take these poor noobs into Ulduar blind” initiation to the guild. I hadn’t signed up for it, I didn’t know we were going, M’Pocket Tank and I just logged on about three days after joining, to have our Resident Sadist jump us with a jolly cry of “hey, these 23 people want to come to Ulduar with you.”
To be honest, I usually plot a more moderate course between having some idea what may be about to happen to me and retaining some sense of novelty and excitement. Ultimately if 9 or 24 other people are semi-reliant on you not playing like a fool, it’s simply bad manners to go in there *absolutely*clueless.
If I’m with friends or people are explicitely getting of a kick of my wibbling, I do enjoy the added “ohmygosh” factor of going in blind, though. Besides, it’s a different set of challenges – adaptability and quick thinking under fire, as opposed to the usual.
“Canadian health care is pretty dumb. Nearly all the so called medical professionals are incompetent buffoons, and… well, our healthcare is free, and we get what we pay for.
Our response to swine flu? “Wash your hands and go home”.
My sister was almost killed because the doctors (PLURAL) misdiagnosed a nearly one hundred pound malignant tumor as the common cold.
And when it turned out to be life-threatening?
We only had to wait 6 weeks to get the surgery done.
Oh wait, sorry, that was for the CAT SCAN.
I don’t particularly trust any of them.” -Euripedes
This is the kind of healthcare we will get if Obama gets his way….
/facepalm
Referring back to Euripedes’s comment…
This is the kind of healthcare we will get if Obama gets his way….
/facepalm
“… Only new once.”
Damn straight. I remember the sense of wonder, the aura, the feel, of running my first character to max level, not knowing about the best quest hubs or how to maximize DPS. I figured all that out on my own—or I tried, at least—and when I turned in a red quest at level 21, damn, did I feel proud.
Lost that in the endgame, when I had to look up gear lists and hit caps in order to properly tank heroics. I still miss it. There’s no going back, as far as knowledge of the mechanics is concerned, but I’m looking forward to Cataclysm mostly so I might recover some of that sense of novelty and exploration and discovery.
I try to keep myself ignorant for that reason. I read blogs like this, where I might find the odd mention of a mechanic or two, and read up on bosses if I’m in a PUG, but otherwise? I’ll let the novelty sink in for a wipe or two before I run off to wowwiki.
Noone should be criticized on either side. I’ve seen tanks who never even heard of northrend beasts do it fine while other experienced tanks sometimes wipe it.
The additional ease from knowing the fight back and front is a lot more helpful to some, not as much to others.
I really don’t see this as a problem…
But anyway, interesting point and well written article as always!
@the main post: Personally, if a raider doesn’t know a fight then they are relying on the rest of the raid to make up for his/her lack of knowledge.
I always watch videos on fights and read as much as I can. But Yogg was STILL awesome to see the first time. If you’re losing a darn thing by reading strats.
I think it kind of depends on my mood. I’ve been the uber obssed over an upgrade priest, who chased upgrades that upped my crit or my haste by 0.6% or something crazy like that. The one who had buff food, flasks, mana oils (le sigh i miss BC) at the ready, with attack power, hit food, etc in my bags for other people who forgot their stuff. The priest with 100 candles, 40 mana pots, etc. The one who studied the fight. Watched the video. Watched multiple videos.
And I’ve been the healer who gets pugged into 10 man Toc without ever having been there on the last fight, with a “lets rock n roll” kind of attitude, when I’ve 6 candles in my bags, 1 mana pot if that and no buff food or flasks to be found, and still did smashingly well with a brief snoapsis of the fight before hand.
I’ve been the one who didn’t want to know before I got there, because every once in a while the magic feeling of wonder and excitement .. the never knowing what ur gonna get kinda feeling is fun.
I think the truth is the best path is probably the middle line. The raider who has a decent talent build, and knows how to play their class — who comes to raids with the consumables they will probably need. The kind of player who doesn’t cram for the boss fight test the night before, but the kind who can do well with a brief explanation, and figure it out as they go along.
But hey .. different strokes for different folks. We all pay the same 15 a month.
on the subject of overgeared healers: my priest is at the point where in a heroic he will do the next pull and tank it purely healing himself.
I absolutely encourage my tanks go without pants in heroics! As discipline, it’s REALLY REALLY hard to keep my finger away from the “bubble” button, but heroic-level mobs usually can’t burst through the bubble on a raid-geared tank. So the pallies go bone-dry on mana and cry.
The pantslessness started when one tank was def-capped without his pants, and has now become a guild tradition, even if it pulls them below def cap! (Really, tanking without bracers, for example, does NOT have the same ring to it. If a piece is going, it’s gotta be the pants.) The other fun alternative for “need to take damage so I can get heals to regen mana!” is for the paladin to sit down during battle once she has an adequate threat lead. Good times.