I’ve railed against RNG before, and it remains my hugest complaint about WoW.
RNG is a necessary component of an RPG, or so I’m told by my past self and others. Which I can definitely see, I mean Hot Streak would be less fun it was simply a button you pushed every six seconds, and I think we’ll always fondly remember the T8 machine gun*.
I get all grumpy when RNG crosses the line from fun, mix-it-up mechanic to game breaking, why the bleeding hell did that just happen territory.
Killing Pokemon the Fire Watcher (or whatever his name is), and he drops warlock pants when warlock is the only class not present in the raid is frustrating. Getting feared and watching as the fear path takes you around a pillar then directly into a wall, ending only once you are out of LOS and fifty yards away from your partner is the pinnacle of frustration.
How many people, honestly, really liked random mace stun procs? How many people saw some poor priest get randomly stunned, and exclaimed “OH MAN LOOK AT THAT SKILL!” or “Well played!”
Me, March 23, 2009.
My opinion has not changed. Game breaking RNG is not healthy. A weapon like the ROFLHERALD adds nothing but arbitrary stupid to PvP. (If science can be a verb, then stupid can be a noun.)
Losing because of RNG is not fun, it’s frustrating, if not utterly disheartening and demoralizing.
Winning because of RNG isn’t really fun either, not for me anyways. It feels hollow, arbitrary.
I played a D&D campaign once where I, the token orc barbarian (yes, full orc, none of this half-orc business), one shot the final boss. To save tedious explanations, essentially I rolled three twenties in a row and instantly killed a boss monster easily ten levels higher than I was.
It was funny, it was fun. But it wasn’t a victory. The evil bad dude lay dead, her loot resplendent in its mighty stat allocation. But the boss was not defeated, it was merely killed.
There’s a very clear distinction between a victory that is legitimate, and a victory due entirely to luck. By the same token, there’s a very clear distinction to losing legitimately, and simply being screwed over by random dice rolls.
Maybe this is another instance where I diverge drastically from the general WoW populace, but I don’t mind losing in the slightest. What I mind is losing because of RNG. What I mind is when success and failure are hinged completely on the almighty gods of the d20.
Being defeated by superior strategy, being crushed due to tactical mistakes, these are legitimate losses, and I am not saddened or frustrated by them.
A pair of arena matches (losses, both of them, for the exact same reason), illustrate this point so precisely I might as well have scripted them.
Me, pally healer, me partner, death knight goofball (face pulling thorim trash since 2009), in Nagrand arena.
First match, it’s me desperately queuing a Holy Light on me partner. I get smacked with a full duration fear, with no way out. All cooldowns have been used. The RNG fear path takes me directly to the nearest pillar, around said pillar, then directly at the wall.
Me partner, of course, being tagged with roots, can’t get anywhere. Me being out of range of healing him, can’t anyway due to the pillar in the way. He dies before I can even get back in range, let alone LOS.
Second match, it’s me desperately queuing a Holy Light on me partner. It’s a paladin/DK team, perfect mirror match, me partner being nearly dead, but their pally in dire straits as well. Their DK runs around a pillar, away from us, and we let him go unharassed, staying on the paladin.
This is, what we in the hindsight industry call a BIG MISTAKE.
A mere .2 seconds before my HL finished, and the DK, which we let go, death grips me out into the middle of nowhere, out of LOS of me partner. Where the pally then kills him.
The difference? The first instance was due to RNG, the second due to being outfought.
Well, the paladin was in full relentless gear and a 258 weapon/shield, but meh.
And here’s the rub. The first match, we lost directly because of RNG. Would we have lost anyway? If a situation is dire enough where a single failed HL results in defeat, is it even possible to recover from that?
We’ll never know, because RNG screwed us over before we even had the chance to lose legitimately.
The second match was a legitimate loss. A team with a MMR rating over 100 higher than ours that vastly outgeared us, but we didn’t lose because of that. We lost due to superior tactics on their side. Which is exactly how it should be.
Sure, I did release a cry of “Nooooo!” as I was being yanked through the air, but there were no lamentations of “damn it blizz this game is retarded”. DG is a tool, and if it’s used to yoink a healer out of LOS with their partner, that’s a legitimate strategy.
Perhaps most importantly, strategy and tactics can be countered. RNG cannot. You can’t effectively fight that which is random and completely unpredictable. All you can do is react and hope you don’t get screwed too hard.
There’s a reason why random stun procs died a swift death, and why Seal of Justice needs to get the same treatment.
The primary purpose of losing is to become better. That’s why you lost, you weren’t good enough, so you have to become better in order to secure victory.
What do you learn from a random mace proc? What strategies do you come up with to counter completely random events utterly beyond your control?
In short, you don’t, really. You come up with a few damage control ideas, then hope it doesn’t happen again.
Losing legitimately, to superior tactics/strategy, teaches you things. You lost to things you can control, you lost because of things you are capable of adapting to and defeating. In other words, you learn, and become better.
You learn nothing from losing to RNG, you do not become better, only more frustrated and angry.
Losing properly has the opposite effect. You learn, you become better, you come up with new ideas that inevitably lead to success.
* As you know, the T8 set bonus allows for your specs random proc to not get consumed when using it. Worthless for arcane, say, but absolute gold for fire mages. My best record was five pyroblasts in a row.
My personal record for chainpyros was 6. Kologarn didn’t know what hit him, and neither did my mana pool!
Also, on the topic of your pally, I sheeped you in WG a couple days ago and OSHI- ‘d after I noticed the name. Good times
hehehe, triple crit for the win.
But alas, as a long time reader first time poster I totally agree with you. RNG is dumb, neccesary unfortunatley, but dumb.
“Stupid” can be a noun.
“Science” cannot be a verb. No way. You can’t “science” anything. What does that even mean?
RNG isn’t a bad thing, sure, but I think the issue here is the sheer potential for fuckovery that spells like Fear have. Lucky crits—even strings of crits—can largely be handled by good gear and good play, and more importantly are mitigated by the law of averages; Fear is not.
Most other CC is straightforward; you have your snares and your roots and your stuns, and then Blind and Poly might make you dance around a little bit, but they’re not going to send you running into a wall. I daresay the fix to Fear is to give it an increasingly high chance to break the farther you run.
Seal of Justice would be much better, I think, if it worked a bit like Seal of Corruption … after three, four stacks, you get your stun, then it resets to 0.
Science is a verb now.
Achwahaaa??
But … but … it … semantics … grammaticality … no-ooooooo …
STOP BREAKING LANGUAGE! IT’S NOT COOL ANYMORE!!
I think RNG makes the game fun tho. Sure, some like being able to compute everyrthing, but whats the point if you can just calculate every encounter or problem in the game? You meet a comp in arenas, and say “ooo, i has computed that comp is superior to us, their second stun is our bane”. This is already way to true. Less than before, but still. Crits are rng, and I love them as a healer. A lot of the fun in this game for me comes from uexpected damage spikes and unfortunate positioning etc. And rng is not really that hard to deal with either, it is predictable in most cases, just a bit more fluid than the cooldown of hammer of justice. And if you can deal with that, it feels great. Overcoming horribly bad luck is more entertaining and rewarding than winning fair and square.
Yay RNG
I’m sorry, did you just say that RNG is predictable in most cases? Do you really understand what random is? By definition, it is not predictable.
I agree that overcoming horribly bad luck is fun to do. However, when you get a high rating in an arena it’s quite nearly impossible to overcome the RNG because the really good players are tactically sound. They don’t make mistakes so it’s really a 15 or 20 minute fight until someone gets screwed by the RNG.
Kinda lame if you ask me. I agree with Euripedes. Get rid of RNG CC procs – it does not add to the skill of the player but only takes away from the skill of the opponent.
Yep I did say so
Random is not the case in RNG in WoW. if a paladin is using Seal of Justice, you can tell from his buffs, and act acordingly. Its not random, its just not completely predictable. If you see it in arenas, you alter your playstyle to be prepared for a stun at any time.
That being said, I dislike the stun component. And that is because (shock!) I dont like stuns in general. Being stunned and just not be able to do anything while taking a beating is a boring and unimaginative mechanic. Most other cc has some trick to avoid it. Sheeps, hexes and fears can be interupted or dispelled. They have a cast time. Cyclone can be interupted. You can break them with damage(except friggin’ cyclone). Stuns on the other hand, are instant cast, and can’t be broken except with trinkets(I know there are a few exceptions here).
Crits, damage procs, or whatever gimmicky instant cast thingie you can get every so and so many casts, great!
Imagine trying to kill a relentless treedruid with steady damage, no crits, no RNG and no procs.
boooooring i say.
And if its the only random stunthingie you hate, I agree, remove HoJ, but leave RNG out of this
I’m going to have to agree with Monsieur here. RNG makes the game more “fun” because it makes it more realistic. (Fun in quotes since fun for me might not be fun for someone else — maybe realism isn’t what you want in the game!)
Look at if this PvP were happening RL. Maybe the wind blew dust and made you cough at the wrong moment, maybe sun got in your eyes… RNG is that sort of thing, something you just can’t plan for.
Yes, and we all can shoot fire out of our hands and terrify others into running around randomly. I’ve also got a very common ability to allow green leaves to fly to my friends and remove HIV, Cancer and Herpes.
This game is not, by the furthest imagination, real. It’s labeled a fantasy for a reason. haha
RNG is “fun” when it’s not game-changing or skill-removing. I stand by this and will argue this all day long. As I’ve stated before: RNG crits, speed procs and ability procs are great…it’s just the game-changing RNGs that piss me off – basically RNG stuns.
I remember back in TBC on my mace rogue in arenas, I don’t remember the team make ups, except that I was on one team while a warlock was on the other.
We had killed his felpuppy and were trying to get him down while his Soul Link was off. Then I saw him pop Fel Domination and start up his .5 second summon, then BAM mace stun. It wears off and he tries again, and BAM another proc.
I honestly don’t remember who ended up winning that fight, but that bit of RNG luck always stuck with me.
Last night an item dropped in ToC25 and our cranky tank was on his healer and pally healing plate dropped. The first paladin, a new guild member, rolled something along the lines of 965. Our cranky tank who always gets screwed over by RNG starts complaining that he isn’t going to even roll. So after the entire raid starts bitching at him to at least try, he rolls a 980…
Next boss he rolls a 985 or something to win a Trophy beating out 24 other people.
We’re not sure, but we’re starting to wonder if complaining eventually works.
Surely the RNG represents the reality of life. You will struggle to find any scenario that does have a random error factor involved in it. That’s why fly-by-wire is the consensus of three processors. By wanting every variable to be written in stone you are creating a sanitised environment that in no way reflects reality. RNG = everyday life get used to it.
Yes, and I play wow to simulate real life.
For me, personally, I don’t like the RNG for the same reason Euripedes doesn’t. It’s just utterly frustrating when you are beaten by the RNG and not the player. It’s often maddening!
I play the game to have fun and when something presents itself that isn’t fun I like to avoid it. That is why I don’t raid (pve is too easy and boring) but would rather PvP. There is true challenge when fighting other players because there is no script.
People speak about the lack of RNG meaning that you can calculate any given comp down to a formula – essentially scripting it. Not ever going to happen and you all know it. It’s a simple matter of you playing against another person. The ‘RNG’ should be the person’s actions, not random no-skill-dumps.
I think “If science can be a verb, then stupid can be a noun” is my new favorite quote!
@ Monsieur
I agree with what you are saying although I will argue all day long against your meaning of RNG.
(mathematician here so I’m very particular about that)
Yes, it’s mostly stuns that I have a problem with. These are really the only time you can lose to an RNG. You know what I mean? RNG crits, speed procs, etc are not game changing (for the most part) but RNG stuns change the mechanic of the game so much that it goes from “we are competitive with this team” to “we are getting face-rolled by this team”.
There are the few exceptions to the RNG game-changing situations outside of stuns. A fear like OP mentioned can be one. Hex and HoJ are so close to a stun that I usually just consider them one. (sure they can be cleansed but only if you have someone with you to do it) All other forms of CC are annoying but tolerable.
You and I share the same feeling about stuns. No method of escape except a 2 minute cooldown (for the most part) is completely unimaginative and boring. Recently, while playing my warrior, I was stunned so repeatedly that I was ‘stun immune’. That is completely ludicrous.
Pretty much agree then
(i love crits you see)
And about the stun immune.. if, say a rogue and a protwarrior stun your ass so hard and so long that you actually become stun immune with a sweating oom healer hiding behind you, will a mage be able to add to your frustration with a deep freeze that does omfckngoad moar raidboss instakill uberdamage?
My group was just talking about triple crits yesterday. Our conclusion was something like “it’s a bad rule because a triple crit from the enemies is always 4,000,000,000x more awesome than a normal attack, but a triple crit on a kobold NPC is suck”.
@ Lucy
The English Language was broken long before we were around. Just look at phonetics. Someone tell me why we have the letter “k”.
Allow me to paraphrase Richard Feynman:
“When speaking to a linguistics colleague of mine regarding the English language he lamented on the fact that almost 65% of incoming freshman (to college) misspell the word ‘friend’. He, of course, drew the conclusion that our high school educational system is faltering. I, on the other hand, suggest there is nothing wrong with the incoming students but rather the way we spell the word ‘friend’.”
- Excerpt from “The Meaning Of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist”
I think we’ve all missed the important thing here:
Nerf pillars!
i’m pro-RNG and i vote. i agree with Monsieur.
also, apparently, science is a verb, and “fuckovery” is a… um…. a word.
; )
@ricomoss: Yes, I’m fully aware that WoW =/= RL and that no one can cure cancer by tossing a handful of leaves into the air. That being said, within the theme of WoW, you can have more or less reality. There’s a weather effect where wind blows grass and trees and whatever else. How come nothing ever blows into anyone’s eye? How come when you’re fighting someone the wind doesn’t blow a bit of paper into your face and distract you for a moment? RNG could be thought to cover that kind of thing.
Who cares about RNG. Someone used “Fuckovery” in a sentence. That same someone was bitching about grammar/proper word usage.
/scratches head.