Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with shamans.
By now, I’m sure most of you are aware of a certain Greedy Goblin and his hilarious exploits. Well, I suppose not everyone finds him hilarious, but I sure do.
Anyway, his most recent posts focus on gear. Or rather, the relative meaningless of gear. Long story short, his guild cleared 10-man Ulduar in blues.
This reveals the strange little issue with how players decide to treat gear. To be blunt, a very large chunk of players view gear as a crutch for their character, rather than something that enhances their character.
Look at it this way. Say you’re a professional driver. You can purchase more responsive brakes, higher quality tires, invest in better fuel and superior engineering, but none of that makes you a better driver. All it does is make driving easier and smoother.
Give an excellent driver a crappy car, and he will produce incredible performance from it. Give a piss poor driver the pinnacle of German automotive engineering, and you will have a finely crafted fireball careening into a ditch.
To put it in WoW terms, getting better gear is not going to suddenly teach you how to play. The quality of your gear can make the difference between, say, 3100 DPS and 3200 DPS, but if you expect gear to make the difference between 1500 and 3000 DPS, you’re either wrong or naked for some reason.
Picture a tank. They upgrade a piece, giving themself 2% more dodge. In the long run, this means they take roughly 2% less melee damage, which is 2% less healing the healers have to do, which means the healer has more mana to spend elsewhere, if needed.
Assuming it’s a good tank, anyways.
Give that same 2% dodge upgrade to a bad tank, and it just doesn’t matter. The tank won’t be alive long enough because he let his healer die and forgot what AoE threat is.
It’s the same for anyone.
Sure, increasing your effective DPS from 3300 to 3500 is nice and all, but what good does it do if you stand in a void zone and die?
Raid composition and player skill is what gives you the vast majority of your effectiveness. Gear adds an extra edge on top of that, not the other way around.
“Sure, increasing your effective DPS from 3300 to 3500 is nice and all, but what good does it do if you stand in a void zone and die?”
Yeah, but it doesn’t harm either.
Don’t take this wrong – I loved the achievement of Gevlon, I think he really made a point and I wrote a congratulating comment which came from my heart. I admire players who can do stuff like that and I wish I was as skilled myself.
Unfortunately I’m not. I’m constantly fighting to become better, and slowly, slowly I guess I learn, but still – I DO sometimes get shadowcrashes on me. I suck sometimes and I beat myself hard in the head. It’s not a matter of focus or willpower. It’s a matter of skill, reaction time, eye and hand coordination.
And now I’ll break the news to you: I don’t get more skilled by skilled players pouring out there contempt for the not-yet-so-skilled-players who at least try to gather a decent gear, even though it in no way can replace true skill. It doesn’t help me a bit to be honest.
Sometimes I wonder what it takes to please you and the other skilled players? Maybe you won’t be happy until the day that you’ve managed to scare the rest of us out of the game. The question is: whan the game is completely void of M&S and only the skilled über l33t players are left – will Azeroth really be a nicer and more fun place to spend your time in? And will your subscription fees be enough to pay the salaries of the Blizzard staff?
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh and frustrated. I adore your blog and I normally don’t get this pissed off, but I think it’s something that has been built up over time, this constantly rubbing in about how much players like me suck. It needed to get out. You gave me a reason.
Larisa I think you missed his point. It wasn’t that Euri is 133t but,
“Raid composition and player skill is what gives you the vast majority of your effectiveness. Gear adds an extra edge on top of that, not the other way around.”
He wasn’t saying, “I’m the sh1t and you all suxor.” Both Euri and Gevlon are trying to say that all best-in-slot gear doesn’t guarentee a player is going to be more effective than another player in lesser gear.
This is the same idea i’ve been trying to get across to the priesting community. When I see people getting all upset about if they have *the* BIS item or the 9th ranked BIS item its not really relevant. That players abilty/skill and experience are far more important in determining their effectiveness.
The new epic gems are a prime example. Rejecting players because they have good rare gems instead of the perfect epic jems is moronic. 12 gem slots using +19 spell power gems instead of +23 SP epic gems is only 48 SP difference. 48 SP isn’t going to make or break your raid.
BTW i’m not talking about some sort of golden child inate skill which you either have or you don’t have, i’m talking about skill with your chosen class(s) and knowing how to use the tools of that class to fulfil your role.
Goble gobble.
I think what Euri is talking about (based on his title) are the players who say “oh well it’s ok that I came last on that fight because I’m like wearing half pvp gear lol” completely skipping over the fact that they died early on. These are the same people who conveniently blame their mistakes on – “oh I lagged just then”.
Unfortunately some people let their gear hold them back from trying stuff that they think is way out of their league. And this is reinforced from your typical “LFM xxx raid – must be geared! pst your achieve!” rubbish thrown about in General/Trade/LFM chat.
Sure getting a brand new shiny ring might only increase your DPS by like +20 or something, but throw on a ton of raid buffs, and jump into a fight like Vezax or Hodir and the encounter mechanics will make that +20 exponentially better. If that’s the little bit that pushes your guild from wiping at 1% or killing the boss, don’t underestimate it.
Gear adds Y ability plus a multiplier of X.
Skill adds Z ability plus a multiplier of Q.
Without the base added component of both, you won’t get anywhere. A tank that gets killed in one hit cannot outskill it, just as a tank who leaves his back to the boss and spams sit can’t outgear it.
PS Klep – “spams sit” made me lawl.
There probably reaches a point where gear lvl and skill lvl (watever that is) reaches an equilibrium.
in short, I agree with Klepsacovic
if I give the best ‘tank’ in the world crappy gear, with a crappy build, that mathematically doesn’t allow him/her to survive the boss’ auto-attack, well all that skill goes to waste.
On the other hand, someone going from ilvl 213 to ilvl 219 items with minor improvements in stats, then yea, skill is going to play a much larger part of successfully downing the boss, than that extra 2% watever stat.
There is little doubt in my mind that I am a mediocre player. I have accepted this, and learned to embrace my mediocrity. Every time I raid I learn something new, I learn to play a little bit better.
No, the gear does not make me suddenly a great player. But it does give me wiggle room. The extra 500 spellpower from the Greater Heal I used a split second ago might have been what saved that tank when i went all spacey and kept trying to click Circle of Healing, even though it was on cooldown.
The point is, most people fall in a grey area. Having good gear =/= being an awesome player. Having bad gear =/= poor player. Most of the time, it’s somewhere in between. Sometimes your gear is more indicative of your experience. Not everyone learns through experience, but I would venture to say that most people do. I certainly heal a lot better than I did in Naxx 10 – regardless of the gear upgrades. I know better what spells to use when.
Gear isn’t a full crutch, it’s more like a cushion. When I play hockey, I use pro quality gear, I’m obviously not a professional player. However, I use the older gear that is not illegal because it makes goaltending easier. Could I play with pro-spec gear? Yes. But I use the larger gear because it makes what I do easier and I think I play better in it. Can you raid in blues? Probably, but its easier being over-geared than under geared.
now illegal, 12 inch pads and bigger gloves if that means anything. . .
I understand all sides of this issue. We all have been in that “pug from hell” where after a couple of wipes, you begin to realize that there is no amount of gear, skill, luck, or divine intervention that is going to pull you through. At that point, you find yourself wondering, “is this the skill level or is the gear level that is continually wiping us?” At that point does it really matter? The fact is- It ain’t happening!
So, at least when you armory someone before inviting them or you ask to see the achievement, you have reduced your risk of another wasted hour or two of wipes. You can never totally eliminate it, but you can reduce it somewhat.
So, regardless of Gevlon’s claim that it is all about skill level not gear. There is no way to quantify skill level prior to an attempt and therefore, no way to reduce the risk.
I’ve pugged raids in the past and asked for achievements and checked gear. Not because I wanted to guarantee that the person I was inviting wasn’t a scrub, but simply to reduce the risk. There are plenty of bad players out there who have been carried through Uld 25 week after week and cant break 3 dps, and every once in a while you stumble across the fresh level 80 enhancement shammy in blues and craftable epics who breaks 3k on Emalon. Skill > Gear, but you can’t armory someone’s skill level.
Lets all hate on Euri time Whooo, JK. Just because you dislike how he said it or because you can’t quantify and measure it doesn’t make it untrue. He wasn’t attacking anyone, he was presenting a fact. You don’t have to agree but that doesn’t change anything.
Skill will always overcome gear and even if you suck at the game and can’t figure out why your attack power isn’t helping your Fireball saying that someone is a jerk for telling you it is your fault not the gear is stupid. So what, you suck, who cares? Are you still having fun playing and trying to learn?
If you already know your gear is ok but it is a you problem chances are this post wasn’t meant for you anyway. Unfortunately the people who need to know that Spellpower plate isn’t good for DK’s will probably never come here or to other informative sites.
gear is a tool. better gear means more efficient tool. can you do well with suboptimal gear? yes you can. but how much better can you do with better gear?
lets compare it to cooking. can you make a tasty meal with only one pot, pan, and a chef’s knife? why yes, yes you can. its going to take longer, some of the preparation process might even become tedious, but the end result would be an enjoyable tasty meal. does it mean food processors are bad? no I think they are wonderful because they cut down on the time you spend repetitively cutting and give you more time to actually enjoy the meal.
and yes, you are right, if you give a bad cook the best tools and the best ingredients in world, they will still end up with a bad meal. but give an average cook better tools to work with? you might not believe me, but the result would show a significant improvement in taste.
to take it back to WoW. I’m a relatively slow caster. I’ve tried to fix it, but at this point, I’ve merely accepted it as one of my limitations. I don’t have a fast casting twitch timing some of my guildies do. I’m an average player who moves out of the bad on time 90% of the cases, attacks a proper target, even if a second later, cleanses and interrupts when necessary (they generally at a cost of dps – I’ve decided if it comes down to me getting off that lavaburst and risking missing a windshear on a guardian before he finishes his shadowbolt volley cast – I’d rather windshear). making sure I’m well geared allows me to make the 10% of the time where I screw up non critical. that shadowcrash that I didn’t move out of in time will not one shot me. that extra tic of poison I took, because I didn’t start moving immediately – will not take me out of the fight.
most of us are not perfect. most of us are not exceptional. we’re not bad, we’re just not Encidia (or whichever guild it was that is currently world’s #1 guild is these days) we need our better more efficient tools, so that mistakes that we make don’t break us (and the group)
In a way I guess, I’m agreeing with what you’re saying. But I know that I would never be able to clear Ulduar in blues. I would not be able to heal or dps through it. not because I’m an idiot who doesn’t understand the use of my character’s abilities or that standing in bad or not dodging the bad that is about to fall on me means death. but because I’m not Emerill or Jeff Gordon. I’m just an average player with average reaction time and an average intelligence.
Try telling this to the PuG leaders who Armory everyone.
(It occurs to me that the use of “Armory” as a verb is terribly clunky, and only slightly better than “check everyone’s gear on Armory”. I wonder if there’s a better term out there?)
I guess it’s because gear has a nice little number and color attached, whereas skill … skill can’t easily be measured. It took plenty of skill to best Hyjal back in BC days, but nowadays it’s cake thanks to the gear upgrades. Numbers like DPS and TPS also fluctuate with gear. There’s no easy way to measure it.
The corollary to this, of course, is particular to the previous two posts: if you don’t like doing calculus to figure out how good your gear is, you don’t have to, and it probably won’t make much difference in the end—so long as you know the basics of itemization and can play your class effectively. You’ll still have to put up with criticisms from the elite, but this is WoW; you’ll ALWAYS have to put up with criticism from the elite, unless you’re scoring server firsts left and right.
The point is not that gear is irrelevant. The point is gear is not nearly as relevant as so many try to make it out to be.
Let’s say you’re trying to put a nail into a wall. Yes, you can do it naked (with your fist) but it’s better to use a tool, such as a hammer or a flat rock you found outside.
The hammer is, naturally, better than the flat rock, but the rock will work just fine.
A sledgehammer is, of course, total overkill.
Blizzard need to realize female gamers tend not to like studying talent points or analyzing dps to 1 decimal point.
I get peeved that my dk is nude in talent points after every patch.
Maybe they’ve made so much money they can start eliminating female players and casual gamers.
@Jujee – speak for yourself that “female gamers” tend not to like studying talent points or analyzing DPS to 1 decimal point. I enjoy it. I’ll miss it when it’s gone. Don’t generalize, please. It’s mildly insulting.
That said, I bust my ass theorycrafting, working and DPS testing because I want to, because being happy with my output & playstyle is my goal. Not “being the best.” I have solid gear, though it’s not fantasticalamazing. I do more DPS on my boomkin now than my shadow priest did in significantly better gear. Sometimes it really is the play style. Sometimes it’s you.
The paradox of L2P:
I found this blog just recently since I am leveling a mage for fun, here I can L2P – understand how the class works and what abilities to use and when to use them.
That means that when I hit 80 some day, I will be prepared with best possible spec and rotation, know what gear to aim for, at least which stats to keep an eye on.
But, I will still get L2P tossed at me, when I stand in void-zone the first time I visit a new encounter.
And the only correct response will be: “I am doing just that!”
@Jujee – Please say you’re kidding.
Who’s asking you to crunch numbers or decimals? I’m very sorry if that scary looking talent tree is too much for your fragile girl psyche to handle (because apparently no girl would be seen DEAD doing something un-girly like maths or stuff), but fortunately, no one is stopping you from just putting points in any random spot and continuing to be bad. Phew!
Wow, these comments are all OVER the place.
#1 – I’m impressed with what Gevlon accomplished. I honestly didn’t think you could get enough tank survivability, DPS, and healing throughput to do Ulduar in blues.
#2 – Euripedes is absolutely right in calling gear an enhancement to your abilities instead of a crutch to hold yourself up on.
#3 – MOST of the WoW playerbase don’t give a crap. You will not be able to get into Ulduar in full blues unless your guild is carrying you.
So in the end, does it matter if its a crutch or an enhancement? You have to have the gear to get the raid invite.
Exactly.
What we need is a viral vid of some guy getting several thousand DPS in blues with a subpar talent spec. Preferably with a pithy bumper-sticker catchphrase that can be tossed in the face of any PuG leader.
It won’t fix anything, but it’ll make me feel better.
@ annonymous
Girls are less likely to be interested in technical aspects. That does not mean they have a fragile psyche.
Guys tend to be less empathic and emotional. Do they have a damaged psyche?
In order to keep up with the game, new raids, bgs etc you cannot be in green boe and random specs. Unless you enjoy derision and being titled noob.
@Jujee
So, do you think then that the solution is to further dilute an already simplified game because a few people are unwilling to “do the math” behind gearing up? (And it’s not even that really, there are plenty of sites out there where people who HAVE done the math pretty much just tell you what to wear and where to put your talent points, so in reality the only “complication” is learning how to use google).
What I take umbridge in is the fact that you seem to think that Blizzard are trying to alienate “girls” and “casual gamers”. If anything, it’s quite the opposite, and ever since Lich King the game has been made easier and more accessable for the casual demograph. Where do we draw the line? Are you saying you just want 3 buttons for “Tank, DPS, Heal” for each class in place of talent trees? If not, maybe you need to accept that a successful game will have advanced elements at the bleeding edge. No-one is forcing you to theorycraft, use an exact talent spec or spend weeks farming the same raidboss for your BiS, but if you want to do Hard Modes etc then it makes sense to.
Back on the original topic, gear and skill normally go hand in hand. Yes you can clear Uld in blues if you have the skill, but what does that really prove? It proves that you can still do something with a handicap? Gj I guess. Even with gear being so much easier to get now, it’s still not hard to spot bad players. If I was making a pug raid (and thankfully, I hardly ever do), I’d take the Blue geared alt who had Ulduar Epics crafted and gemmed correctly over the imbicile who might be in full epics, but they gemmed expertise on their Conqueror’s Kirin Tor Robe (true story). However, if you see a blue geared DK in spellpower plate, chances are they aren’t that skilled
Tazer:
“But, I will still get L2P tossed at me, when I stand in void-zone the first time I visit a new encounter.
And the only correct response will be: “I am doing just that!””
Why are you standing in anything that spawns by default? Maybe this is a tank talking but if it spawns its:
a) picked up and tanked
b) kited
c) avoided
I can’t think of a single spell an enemy casts in levelling that is beneficial for you to stand in, so really it is a L2P issue because people expect you not to stand in things.
Most of WoW is simple as a game, we have very limited things we can do in terms of options. Standing in things is one of the major causes of death I see (or an unwillingness to move when a bad thing happens). Your first assumption should always be “omg what am I standing in / on / in the way of” and assume it is bad (player vs environment /enemy) rather than assuming its good.
The funny thing about this post is that, even after reading the disclaimer, I still looked for a shaman reference
@ annoymous
Female wow players who want to be outstanding in their gameplay and experience the most out of the game (myself included) will just have to do what they don’t enjoy…which is the technical aspects. Some girls will enjoy it, but if you took a poll most girls will not be number crunching enthusiasts.
Similar reason why females play sims expansion after expansion. Another example is my partner plays king of fighters while I play Diner Dash. WoW is unique in appealing to both demographics, although not equally in all aspects.
What my original post was conveying is that I don’t like this constant change in gear stats and talents. It requires me to investigate what I need to do to maximize my character’s performance. That includes having to find websites and guides on specs and gears.
The dilemma is I along with most other female and casual gamers don’t enjoy what I need to do in order to get the most out of the game.
He wasn’t in all blues. As he said, he’s in all blues and (iLvl226) epics. Does this show us that gear doesn’t matter? Or does it show us that Blizzard has just made it easier to get geared? You could farm a ton of heroics and wind up doing this well.
He seems to be trying to say that ‘bring the player not the class’ is wrong, but he gives support to it. He tells you that just because someone is pulling 1200 dps doesn’t mean they just need some gear upgrades. Doesn’t this mean you need to bring another player, not just that class?
No, he was indeed all in blues, as was the main tank, and everyone else in the raid. They left their armories up in the gear they cleared Ulduar with, all blues head to toe.
Not even in crafted iLevel 200 epics.
He said some logged out in their normal epics, as they had other raids to do.
And actually, he agreed completely with “bring the player not the class”, but amended it to be “bring the skilled player, not the class.”
Fully agreed that it’s way easier to get geared, which is partially why gear doesn’t matter so much these days.
The point of going to the Armory to find PuG members is less about thinking the gear carries you through content and more to get an idea about the player.
If you have someone entirely in greens and one Ulduar 10 epic, I’m not gonna take him because I’ll know the guy is a tool that expects other people to carry him through things without even trying.
If the guy is all in epics, I may take him and I may not. He could have been carried for every single one of those, or he could have fairly worked up and earned ‘em.
If he’s mostly in blues, maybe one green and a few crafted epics? Yeah, probably a sure bet there. He put in the effort to become as good as possible and it shows.
I think it’s harder to find good people once they’re all in epics. Purples are handed out like candy and don’t say anything about skill at all…
[...] This reminds me of a post by Euripedes of Critical QQ. Being the good natured person I claim to be, I did read his Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 Unported License and found that I could quote him as long as I credit him, which I did just a few moments ago, so here it is: “Look at it this way. Say you’re a professional driver. You can purchase more responsive brakes, higher quality tires, invest in better fuel and superior engineering, but none of that makes you a better driver. All it does is make driving easier and smoother. [...]