I get a lot of questions like “should I get Imp. Scorch?” or “is Incanter’s Absorption worth it?” “or “where should I put point X and Y? Is it worth dropping Z?”
The answer is short, and may be disappointing to some of you:
I don’t know.
How can I know? I’m not you, I’m not in your shoes, I have no idea what your raiding environment is like. I can’t tell you, flat out, how to play. All I can offer is pointers and some rather basic rules.
Just for a fleeting moment in time, picture WoW as real life, and this as an advice column. I receive many questions such as “should I eat oranges or apples? Is there even a comparison?” but those questions I can’t satisfactorily answer.
I could say “eat apples!” but what if you’re allergic to them? What if apples are really expensive, or people with your hair colour are arrested and beaten for eating apples?
I can offer advice like “jumping off buildings will have a negative impact on your health”, or “it is unwise to lick predators larger than you”; you know, basic stuff.
When I get asked “should I get Imp. Scorch, or just let a warlock do it?”, all I can really say is “Well… should you?”
In an effort to try and answer many of these questions all at once… here’s me… uhh, answering them. All at once.
To Scorch, or not to Scorch
Consider the following:
Every time you Scorch, you are reducing your personal DPS from it’s potential. However, the loss of DPS from not having the Scorch debuff up outweighs this loss.
Magnified over the raid, losing the Scorch debuff is a very large loss of DPS.
In order to effectively Scorch for your raid, you need to invest 3 points into the talent and pick up the corresponding glyph.
Someone has to have it. Someone in the raid has to be able to provide this debuff, whether it’s a warlock, a frost mage, or a fire mage of some sort. It must be there to truly min/max the raid.
In an ideal situation, a fire specced mage will have Glyph of [Nuke], Molten Armor, and Living Bomb, and someone else will have “Scorch” duty, even another fire mage.
With this in mind, consider the following:
Can you depend on someone else to Scorch? Is there a warlock/frost mage/another fire mage there, willing and able to provide it instead?
Are you able to depend on them every raid? Are they going to not show up sometimes and force you to respec? Even if they do show, is the raid willing to continue a fight without the debuff if they die? Is it able to continue (in a hard mode fight)?
Perhaps you’d be willing to carry around two specs for explicitly this reason? You could have one spec with the talent and glyph, and one without. Switch between the two as needed.
If you PuG a lot, how often do you need to Scorch? Do others typically show up with the requisite talents? Are you willing to risk doing a PuG raid without the debuff?
Look at your raiding environment, take all this into account, and then decide. The answers should be easy.
(Dear Blizzard: please roll the Glyph of Improved Scorch into the base talent itself. It would be deeply appreciated.)
Replenishment? Y/N?
Consider the following:
A raid must have Replenishment. Every fight, every class with mana, is designed around the assumption that everyone will have access to Replenishment.
Many specs bring the Replenishment buff; it is actually hard to participate in a raid that does not have it. Survival hunters, retribution paladins, destruction warlocks, shadow priests and frost mages all bring the buff.
In order to bring the buff, you will need to spec frost, which is inferior to other mage specs in terms of pure DPS output.
Once again, the decision is up to you. Both survival hunters and ret paladins are very popular specs; it isn’t a stretch to simply assume that one of them will be present in a 25-man raid.
But again, look at your own raiding environment.
If you’re in a small guild running 10-man content with no hunters in sight, only one paladin tanking, two priests dedicated to healing, a warlock who refuses to spec anything but affliction, and you as the only mage… it’s a very good idea to spec frost and nab replenishment.
Like the Imp. Scorch thing, somebody has to have it. It is not optional, but it does not need to be you who brings it.
What about talent X, Y, or Z?
Nearly every question of this style is directly questioning the early arcane tree. Let’s get this straight:
For any of those 18/XX/XX specs, the only important part of the arcane tree is Torment the Weak. Those first 15 points you put into the tree? Stick ‘em wherever you want, it barely matters.
Picture it like a car. TtW is the engine, without it, you’re going nowhere. Everything else is cosmetic details, like what colour it is, how shiny the hubcaps are or whether the rear-view mirror is oval or rectangular.
But hey, discussion is what we do best here, so let’s discuss!
(The following is from the perspective of a non-arcane mage.)
The entire first tier and Arcane Fortitude are essentially useless. Your first five points can go anywhere, it’s really not important at all.
You’re never going to use Arcane Missiles or Explosion, and you’re not going to need the extra hit for Counterspell and Polymorph, as you’re never going to be casting those spells at a (mathematically) level 83 mob. 80, 81, 82, sure, but you should have more than enough hit to cover that.
Magic Absorption and Arcane Concentration are both quite useful.
The first one will give you a flat 80 spell resistance, which will resist a substantial amount of magic damage. As long as magic damage (that is resistable) is being thrown around, that is. This will feed you more mana and make your healer’s lives easier.
On fights such as, say, Patchwerk it’s utterly useless. But on, say, Sapphiron or Malygos phase 2 it’s extremely powerful.
The latter is an improvement to the depth of your mana pool, nothing more. Worth the points if you are playing a mana intensive fireball spec, but you can afford to not take it if you’re frost specced.
Note: It gets said a lot that frost is very easy on your mana pool. Please note that Arcane Concentration is partially responsible for its incredible mana efficiency.
The third tier of arcane starts getting a little more interesting.
Generally speaking, don’t bother with Magic Attunement. It provides very little.
Fireball specs are going to want to pick up all three points Spell Impact, and frost mages utilizing Brainfreeze and Ice Lance should consider it too.
Note: this is the exception to “whatever”. Fireball based specs should have Spell Impact.
Focus Magic is a solid buff for both you and whoever you cast it on. Just make sure you get it on someone who is constantly casting and critting, such as an elemental shammy or a holy paladin.
Student of the Mind is just somewhere you put points if you’ve run out of ideas. It will give you a tiny boost to your mana regeneration and crit, but it is, point for point, a very low DPS talent.
And, of course, you can’t go wrong investing a couple points in Arcane Meditation if you’re there and have two points to spare.
Pick whichever ones you want.
I read a very good argument on wowthinktank.blogspot.com for treating glyphs like consumables. They’re pretty cheap to make so carry round a stack and switch them as required. It’s a possible compromise for fire mages who can’t always depend on getting the crit debuff from someone else. But it would still require the talent investment just in case.
I made the decision to drop Imp Scorch in favour of LB. A selfish move, perhaps, but I don’t see why I should have to lose a glyph slot just to keep a debuff going that a Warlock can do without losing said slot. We usually roll with at least one Warlock, so as far as I’m concerned it’s their problem now.
Blizz really should roll the Glyph into the base talent though, I really don’t see why we have to lose an entire glyph when another class is able to do the same debuff without that. And Scorch is an inferior DPS spell, Shadowbolt is not.
Replenishment, never even crossed my mind. We ALWAYS have someone else who can provide it in a raid25 environment, and it’s new to frost mages anyway.
Perhaps not doing either of the above now has reduced my (and other mages) utility value to the raid somewhat, but at the moment I am dominating the DPS meters in our raids, which pleases me greatly. My Glyphed MA gives me a very sexy 10% extra crit rating when fully buffed now
– And to think we worried about that not long ago.
When I play my mage, I really appreciate my ret pally. The talents options are far fewer! LOL
I am enjoying my mage. I’m getting use to looking for my proc buffs and such and my dps has doubled. So far, all the mages I raid with are arcane fire or frost. I’m the only FFB and the only one who seems to use scorch. I’m just happy that I’m finally above the tank.
And keep posting. It helps this melee-type learn a bit more each time.
@Melissa:
I was FFB for quite a long time too, but recently made the change to Fire/TtW and never looked back.
I would say I gained at least 400-500 more DPS from making the switch. The rotation you use is almost exactly the same (just replace FFB with fireball), you just average out more damage. The only downsides are needing more hit rating (As you can’t spec precision) and losing Icy Veins (which I love!). The upside is more DPS and Focus Magic can be very very good if you use it on someone who crits a lot. Best is if you run with another mage with the same spec. The amount you both crit it’s basically like having 6% more crit again!
Anyway, I’d say give it a try, you might be surprised
Please remember, every fire mage should have the living bomb glyph! Drop glyph of scorch (if you’re not scorch bitch), glyph of molten armor (if your spirit is under 680 or so – raid buffed. I forget the exact number but I know it’s more than what I have) or glyph of [nuke] if your spirit is over that number. LB is by far the highest DPS glyph.
Living Bomb is a great glyph.
One thing I’ve noticed though, a crit tick from it procs Ignite. Anyone know if it’s intended?
And if so, will the LB tick Ignite overwrite say, A pyro/FFB/Fireball Ignite? (Which will obviously do a lot more damage)
So, by reading this I’m getting the feeling that everyone is going back to fire. I had switched to Arcane a while back with a nice boost to DPS, but I ran with a Fire specced mage the other day who blew my dps away.
Should I be respeccing to Fire?
I totally agree with the whole “play to your own play style” approach. I’m a total non-raider/non-pvper. I can’t tell you how many times the raiders in my guild looked at my talents and started telling me how I was doing it all wrong. My response? “I like my spec. It’s working for me.”
As excited as I was for glyph of LB, I’m keeping Imp. Scorch. The group I run with consists of me as the only dps caster. So I’m responsible for keeping it up, and since I only need to waste one cast (rolled it in with a combusion and trinket macro) on it for that much more dps… I’m okay with that.
Then again, my play style involves a lot of soloing and 5-manning. When I am in a raid, it’s either the 5-man group in Kara, or it’s a PUG. I’m not counting on a PUG to do anything but keep me standing while I wave my hands in the air and shoot fireballs at things. My DPS is my own responsibility.
So, long story longer, spec and glyph to your play style. Look at the advice as just that, advice. Try things out. See what works. Trash what doesn’t. Go bacon.
Sprink,
You said, “As excited as I was for glyph of LB, I’m keeping Imp. Scorch”
LB is the best dps glyph in the game for fire mages, you might want to consider dropping the molten armor glyph instead, or the fireball glyph, depending on your gear. Still keep the improved scorch glyph, but Living Bomb is a must have. If you are good and keep Living Bomb with 95-100% uptime, this dps boost is huge.
Actually, I never thought of that. With how low my spirit is, I’m guessing molten armor glyph isn’t that great to keep around. Because, due to my play style and group setup, I’m not giving up my “totally useless” evocation glyph. ~_^
Hmm…
You have an interesting point that must be tested during this weekend’s 5-man runs, sir. ^_^
couple things,
putting 3 points into the scorch talent is a dps increase even if you are not casting scorch, remember it gives 1/2/3% crit to your FB or ffb
also, assuming youre using a cookie cutter build for ffb or fb
there is NOT another place you can put those 3 talent points and get better dps (single target that is)
to dubldeez:
depending on your gear arcane can be better than fire but assuming you have top of the line gear ttw/fb wins out
personally i switch between an arcane spec and a ttw/fb spec some fights the burst/mobility of arcane is easier for me than the boring fb rotation which has no mobility (for ulduar bosses) also arcane wins out on most short fights but is considerably more difficult to play compared to fire(mana management)
and as far as replenishment goes for mages
its absolutely unneeded in a 25 man raid (if you dont have someone in the raid with it youre clearly stacking your raid wrong)
10 mans on the other hand its situational but not recommended as your dps will suffer horribly
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&n=Caydus
link to my armory^ if anyone is curious
if youre wondering why my fire spec doesnt have combustion.
combustion is barely a dps increase, considering if you have the glyph of living bomb, if the ticks of LB crit while you have combustion up it consumes ticks of combustion making it a huge pain in the ass to time right. and if timed correctly you dont have LB rolling at the same time. throwing the extra points in arcane meditation is well worth it.
You need to spec into Improv. Scorch.
It has a selfish buff to your own crit now.
Casting it? Leave that up to the warlocks, if able that is.
Also, as fire, it is actually wise to spec out of
Combustion and get an additional point into
Student of Mind or Arcane Concentration
now-a-days.
The crit’s from Living Bomb ticks consume combustion,
rendering it a not so good talent.
So much better to have extra spirit for baseline crit
or mana regeneration then to have *woot!* two living
bomb ticks crit and (hopefully) at least one fireball do so
as well.
This is all from a Min/Max perspective though.
I would say that arcane concentration is awesome,
and not a “whatever” think as well =P
To me just the first tier is useless.
10% Clearcasting (Arcane Concentration)
6% Extra damage to fireball (Spell Impact)
6% crit, 3% if there is no other mage (Focus Magic)
12% Extra Damage to fireball (TtW)
I find those numbers nice!
Wow, I totally just read all the comments above me and
now I realize all my comment was merely a regurgitated
pile of nonsense.
/cry.
haha beat ya to it azryu :p
Combustion is a lot like Presence of Mind.
It’s something shiny, and can definitely be a fun button to push. But from a DPS perspective? It brings so little you can utterly ignore it without consequence.
I wonder how much of the Living Bomb crits are intended, and how much are bugs.
Is it supposed to consume Combustion charges? Is it supposed to cause Ignite damage?
@ Dubldeez
The general trend is heading back to fire specs, the general consensus being that it’s a “safer” spec (mana wise) to play and it seems to produce more damage in both theory and practice.
I always thought it was weird that Molten Armor crits would consume Combustion charges (making the talent a lot dicier in PVP … which is really the best place for Combustion). Now LB does the same. Given the terrible state of Fire PVP, I’m not sure the talent has any use anywhere now; a crying shame, since the mechanics of the talent are pretty damn cool.
I’ve been thinking about how to spec my mage when and if i ever hit 80, so far i’ve come up with a frost fire build with more of an empasis on frost such as 0/34/37 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#oZfVc0MhuhVbbZhIcIocuzc0xb:Iiw0oV).
The idea is that frostfire bolt becomes cheaper to cast and crits more often, assumeing FfB procs winters chill and fingers of frost then it also makes it easy to keep the crit debuff up.
The disadvantages are limited burst capability and less damage per hit, you can increase DPS by using cold snap on icy viens temporaraly but i don’t know if the increased crit chance balances out the loss of Burnout.
it’s overall a very simple build albeit that i don’t know how well it would work out in practise, can anyone try it out for me and see what it’s like?
@Euripedes
Looks like you’re asking some of the same questions as me
Let me know if you find out
@ Koushirou
Switch the extra point in Frostbite (that’s doing nothing for you aside from eating up the necessary 5 points for the first tier: you have Fingers of Frost) and the single point in Frozen Core (I don’t think even PvP mages bother with that talent very often) over to 1 point in Blizzard and Cold as Ice. Talenting into Improved Blizzard will increase your critical hit chance in a big way as it will now be affected by FoF. Cold as Ice is pretty useless for your build (not as much as 3/3 Frostbite and Frozen Core though), but it can save you a bit of time if you had to pop Cold Snap on a messy trash pull or had an early wipe on a boss and have to wait on that cooldown before starting again…
Winter’s Chill isn’t doing much for you here. The +3% crit doesn’t affect Frostfire, and you will be supremely annoyed with the fact that Scorch and Improved Shadowbolt both override Winter’s Chill, even if you have full stacks up… You’ll want to slap that fire mage for ruining your 5 stacks from Blizzard, and then forget to refresh his scorch when it’s gone… Nrr…
Hats off to you for trying a build like this, but I don’t think it’s going to work overly well (the number of “wasted talent points” needed to get yourself up to Fingers of Frost is significant). But yeah, go ahead and have some fun with it. I’d love it if a frost-centric FFB build could be viable.
@ Enario
Thanks for the advice i can see what you mean about improved blizzard although the whole point of me taking winters chill is that others wouldent have to use improved scorch/shadow bolt.
frost bite is only realy taken to get off tier one frost and my original intention in taking frozen core was to balance out playing with fire but thats probably not that important.
I’ll definately try it out myself when i hit the right level, until then i’ll shuffle points around for a bit.