Halls of Lightning. Regular. Only reason I joined up was for the daily, and I’m in desperate need of Kirin Tor rep. Cooking dailies do not suffice.
Me. Level 80 Arcane Mage.
Tank, level 80 Prot Warrior. Decently geared, blues, some greens, a few crafted epics.
Healer, Holy Priest, decked out almost entirely in solid blues with a few old 70 PvP epics. Level 77.
Two Death Knights, both level 79, mostly in blues and greens.
Hit the priest with Focus Magic, AI, summon a table, and off we go.
A few trash pulls in. It’s obvious I outgear the tank; I’m riding the guy’s threat like Daddy Tickler in Epic Bust 8. How’s me DPS?
…
Apparently, better than everyone else combined.
To be blunt, the two DK’s were producing atrociously bad DPS. One of ‘em couldn’t break 500DPS, the other was struggling to keep his above 700.
And then there’s me, sporting 2200 DPS, having left ALL my cooldowns and trinkets untouched for fear of roaring over Mr. Tank in threat. I quite often simply stood there doing nothing (or casting Ice Lance) if I got a “lucky” string of crits.
The one who couldn’t break 500 DPS played like he was trying to play on a laptop, sans mouse, with one hand tied behind his back and the other was taped to a wooden spoon. He used the wooden spoon to play. I mean, seriously, how does a Death Knight end up with 32% DoT uptime?
I don’t know what was wrong with the other. He was competent, Death Gripped when asked to, didn’t stand in things, and generally performed very well. His damage was just very poor. Probably just didn’t have a rotation figured.
So we flailed through the instance. Mr. Tank led the way confidently, marking mobs, giving out pertinent info when required, and was suitably embarrassed when he mistook my Polymorph: Turtle spell for a non-combat pet.
Little miss level 77 priest healed her holy arse off. Somehow, this skilled little bugger managed to keep us all up through boss after boss after AoE. I don’t know how she did it. She was specced for Imp. DS, and so didn’t really have all the tasty end tree Holy stuff. She had Lightwell.
And she had 12k mana. Buffed.
Yet somehow, we got past almost everything without a wipe (plenty of single deaths, though). A trash pull shortly before Loken went wrong, due to one of the DK’s accidentally aggroing a second group of mobs.
Loken himself, of course, we wiped plenty.
The plan was simple. Eat the first Nova, one of the DK’s can drop AMZ to absorb it. After that, we do the dance.
The problem was simple. The Loken fight deals a lot of damage. A level 77 priest with 12k mana can only heal so much. And when you only have one strong DPS, the healer’s mana bar will run out long before the boss’ health does.
About two hours after we started, the two DK’s decided to move on, log out, whatever it is people do when they aren’t playing WoW.
So Mr. Tank went to /g and asked for a couple more DPS. We got another DK and a Survival Hunter ready to go almost immediately. Both 80.
Trash mobs had respawned. We’d have to reclear them all to get at Loken again. So Mr. Tank reset the instance, so we could do the boss fights over again. More Stone Shards and lewts!
Please let the DPS be good, please let the DPS be good…
Zone in to dead Loken in slightly under twenty minutes. The Loken fight himself lasted a mere 61 seconds.
In the past, much was made of having a good tank and a good healer. The importance of having good DPS was something severely underrated. Proponents that skilled DPS players are needed just as much as tanks/heals were derided and openly mocked.
Well, now I have proof that skilled DPS is just as important, not that I need it anymore. I’m pretty sure the whole Deathtard thing has showed everyone the folly of having subpar DPS.
No tank? No instance.
No healer? No instance.
No DPS? You’re better off with no instance.
From two hours to twenty minutes. From a brick wall, desperately pounded on, to a pile of leaves contemptuously kicked aside.
Yeah, I still topped the damage meters, but at least if you added up the other two you’d get a number higher than me.
We’ve entered a new world, my friends. A world where a DPS player needs to be much more than a warm button pushing a couple buttons.
Embrace this new dawn, and enjoy it.
Amen. I am a well geared tank for heroics. 26.3k health unbuffed, 23k armor, I know my shit. I had my fabulous pocket healer with me and we went into Heroic Violet Hold with a guildie and two pug DPS. It was atrocious. Healer and I carried the DPS through to rift 16, then the volley-happy 800 DPS hunter died and it was over.
I worship heavy DPS now. Without decent DPS I won’t set foot into a heroic again. No, 700-800 DPS doesn’t cut it, and don’t give me the song that you need to run heroics to get better gear. No, you run normals and learn your class, then you start running easy heroics.
So I dinged 80 about 5 days ago and have started hitting heroics like a freight train. And only yesterday did I find an example like yours…
Heroic Nexus; overall a pretty simple place. Keristraza is a simple enough fight as long as you know the “Basics of Dragon Fighting (stay away from mouth and tail)” and where your jump button is. The big rock guy whose name I never remember is a tank and spank. Telestra’s only deal is she can sometimes just randomly go “you lose” by either spamming your healer with Critter/Time Stop or if both Frost and Fire forms stack up AoEs. And Anomalus? Kill the rifts (and any adds that pop), kill him.
Well I had a party with a very good tank, solid healer, and 2 other DPS that were….eh.
I was topping meters with ~1750 DPS (which is rather good for my gear and relative newness to 80). Hunter was around the 1200 range but didn’t seem to like targeting off the tank much so he’d usually have a mob on him at some point. And the warlock…..750 DPS. How do you only do 750 DPS with a Warlock? Really, I want to know.
Anyways, we got through the trash well enough, and after a random “your healer is CCed forever” Telestra wipe we trashed her too. But at Anomalus was when it all fell apart. Why? Because good DPS is very important in that fight, because those rifts need to go down IMMEDIATELY or it’s a wipe, period.
The warlock just wasn’t dealing enough damage, and the hunter wasn’t getting to the rifts until I already had them down to about 20%. Slowly but surely the rifts started appearing faster than they were killed, and everyone got to eat adds and abundant rift-shocking. Anomalus never got below 60%, because I was constantly on the rifts (which no one else was on).
And that was when the tank said “I will never take DPS for granted ever again.” Good times.
Another random story just to fill the “lots of DKs are stupid” quota: While leveling, myself and two guildies (Prot Pally/Holy Priest) queued up two DPS to run Slave Pens; we got two DKs, naturally. One of them was fine; the other one was the type that used Death Grip at every cooldown because it was cool (no matter any consequence).
We accepted and played around this for a long while (even after he just pulled Mennu out of the blue) until the pull right before Quagmirran (the one right before you do the “they’re coming for us!” event with the Naturalist). We all had to mana up while he just runs over and pulls the whole group. We just sat there and watched him die, not saying a word, not moving an inch.
Finally he says “rez plz” in party chat, and the priest hilariously replies “as long as you have learned that my mana bar is more important than your health bar, DPS rating, or pride.” He left, and we just 4-manned the rest because we were awesome.
I never really got to raid at 70. I worked my way through some lower level instances as I leveled, but I never got to experience “endgame,” per se. Now, Devv is inching closer and closer to 80 and I’m starting to get nervous. Why? I’m afraid that I don’t truly understand my class.
Unlike a lot of people out there, I’m willing to do as much research and trial and error as need be to get a good understanding of how to be a raiding Mage. I’m just worried about how much of a fool I’m going to make of myself along the way. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve held my own in five-man instances. But endgame raids are an entirely different animal.
I will say this: in the instances where the party leader effectively marked targets and communicated well, my DPS was the best. I’m not attributing my own successes or failures to anyone else. I just think it makes a difference. I can’t wait to get the experience of some of my blogging peers. Along the way, I’ll be a devoted reader, soaking in as much knowledge as I can.
I simply don’t understand. DK’s can pull 500 dps RIGHT OUT OF THE FREAKING STARTING ZONE. It just boggles my mind sometimes.
Yep, I pugged Nexus recently, with 3 of the party coming from one guild.
The tank was ok, nothing special, but he managed to hold aggro most of the time except from the DPS warrior, who I spent more time healing than anyone else.
In fact for awhile I thought the dps warrior WAS the tank.
Anyway, we were half way through when the dps warrior had to go afk. So we carried on fighting the trash mobs, but suddenly the dps had all but dried up.
I figured one of the others must be afk, too, but no, there they were on the threat meter (barely). Not kidding, when I checked recount later, both of them were pushing around 300 dps.
DPS was always important, especially from a healing standpoint. If the DPS sucked I’d run out of mana, so I think it was always important that DPS were good.
I do think we’ve entered a new era in that Blizzard has changed the mechanics such that it seems nearly every boss enrages so it’s a DPS race, because we’re all dead otherwise.
And I agree with krizzly. WTF?! We had people in my guild at one point that couldn’t keep their DPS over 1000 after a few heroic upgrades. I dinged 80 on my shadow priest with quest greens and lvl 70 epics and was putting out 1200…
The key to get a happy, troublefree instance run is to find a tank and a dps that match. It bores me to death when I in pugs encounter DK tanks (mostly to be honest) who seem to be unable to make any threat at all. What am I supposed to do? Stand with my hands in the pocket doing nothing? God, I hate it. At those moments I wish I had worse gear than I have.
I love these discussions…
No one ever runs with bad tanks or healers twice. But because you have three dps… yeah. Dumbasses get reinvited.
So yesterday was tuesday, and tuesday is PUG VoA day. Majeure gets her 25 man on (all freaking plate drops…) then gets into a 10 man.
First trash pull. Count to 3. Cast.
“HIGH THREAT”
Count to 3. Cast.
“HIGH THREAT”
Tank goes down, but we kill the mob. One of the dps immediately leaves, and we pug an uber geared tank. On to Archavon.
Cast, cast, cast, 30% mana… evoke right as the stomp hits… *curses*
Spend 2 min fighting with almost no mana.
End of fight… still top damage. By a LOT. Like, more than the next two put together. Actually, more than the next three dps, cuz number 4 on the damage chart was the tank.
I dunno. Maybe its just the wave of people who are at the tail end of the leveling curve. I mean, if it takes you 3 months to go from 70 to 80…
And Ripper… see what I mean about not being impressed by DK’s in pvp? You tellin me you wouldn’t spank them in a BG?
I recently healed a heroic AN on my Paladin. Tank was decent, but DPS seemed really, really low. On the 2nd boss I remember healing healing healing Divine Plea healing healing healing healing Divine Illumination healing healing healing … look at the boss and he’s at 50% health. Nearly 3 minutes in.
We wiped on the last boss several times. Each time he would resurface I checked his life… and I’m pretty certain we never dropped him below 50%. Meanwhile I’m running OOM (as a Holy Paladin!).
Then one of the DPS had the gaul to say: “I think this would be easier if we had a healer that could heal a group.”
Riiiiiight. It must be the healers fault that you can’t DPS worth a damn.
That’s only the 3rd time in nearly 5 years I’ve ever put someone on Ignore.
As a tank I am well aware of the need for quality dps, as someone else metioned so many of the bosses seem to have enrage timers in heroics you better have some good dps or not even bother. I have run regular Halls of Lightning with a 75 priest before (I really want the defense trinket from Loken) and not had a problem as long as I can hold ag. One thing not mentioned though is that the tanks ability to maintain threat is directly tied to dps now so Just having a tank who can mitigate isn’t enough you need a tank who is consistently contribute quality dps to fights as well as maintaining ag through each encounter. It makes every instance much smoother
DK’s are not the easiest class to play and with all these nubs picking up the class you will definitely run into a lot of bad players.
I must be having unusually good luck with heroics of late, because I rarely encounter a tank who can’t hold a single target off me. (It may help that I’m a Frost-based Frostfire spec, which means that I do substantially less single target DPS than my gear would otherwise allow.) Usually, I physically can’t get aggro if I wanted to.
The downside, other than underachieving on the damage meters, is that every so often I get a tank that actually CAN’T keep pace, and I’m usually not expecting it because it happens so rarely. Last night I had an “oh bleep” moment on a 10-man Archavon PUG when I looked up at the threat meter and noticed that I was sitting at 96%. o.O I hit invis (which I usually don’t have to do on either version of that fight) and still ended up back in the 80% range by the end.
I really don’t understand how people can do such little dps at 80. Heck my little arcane mage at lvl 67 can put out 900 dps average and i’ve spiked up towards 1100 dps. My 72 ele shaman does around 1100 sustained as does my ret pally and none of those has ever seen a touch of raid gear. My hunter at lvl 75 was doing 1500 dps and now at 80 does 2k dps unbuffed.
I just really am at a loss as to how people put out such dismal numbers. If you are trying I don’t think any dps class should be below 1200 at 80 there really is no logical reason to be below that.
On an odd note I love bad dps when i’m on my priest healing it makes fights more interesting.
Death Knight is a ridiculously easy class to play. I was hitting 1300+ dps at level 75 in greens and BoE blues. I just dinged 80, still have some level 75ish blues and even a green piece or two, and I hit 2k last night on Heroic VoA, without bloodlust.
How is it that hard to do DPS as a death knight? All you have to do is hit both diseases and faceroll across the rest of your keys until your diseases need to be refreshed. You should break 1k easy.
-Unholysoth, Drak’Tharon
As a healer i couldn’t agree more Good Dps is very important. Great DPS is even better. Thankfully my core group has just that.
Telanarra, Drak’Tharon
@ Euripedes
I have been reading your post for about 6 months now. You have such a knowledge of the mage class. But your gear is not so hot yet. Do you raid at all ? I am just curious what you do on your toon everyday.
Rixxy
After playing a healer with a RL friend tanking (sitting next to me) you’ll be supprised just how shit most dps is. Even in heroics we have encountered people unable to break the 1k barrier. It really makes you ask “Why are you doing a heroic?”. The safest way to go is to form the group yourself. Pug the healer and tank, 90% of them will be competent, but ALWAYS armory or know your dps.
I was fortunate that one of the first big-guild-main-pugging-on-their-alts people that ever offered me good advice knew whereof they spoke.
I’ve never forgotten his “A rogue with a full energy bar in combat is crap, and any mana class that wraps a boss fight with 90% mana needs to be smacked” comment.
I think one of the main reasons that so many PuG DPS classes suck is that they are bringing their normal solo mindset to instances. When you solo, going all out is both unnecessary and adds time to the grind…when you run instances, esp. Heroic ones, there should be a whole bunch of mugs coming out at the end of most pulls.
I still have no idea how DK DPS sucks though. Unless all those choices are locking their brains up.
/wave @ Telanarra and UnholySoth
Props to my pally healer (who sometimes remembers to heal me) and our budding DK tank (who can hold aggro off me when I start in with a 3 stack of Arcane Blasts).
Having good support in the tank (we also have a pally tank that does well) and healer really helps with DPS meeting their full potential.
But even with a mediocre tank or healer, there is no excuse for a respectful player to be less than 1k after hitting 80.
Respectful players (see also Rip’s earlier post on Good Players) spend at least some small amount of time figuring out their gear, spec, and rotations instead of showing up “as is” and embarrassing themselves while wasting everyone else’s time.
/wave @ ari and soth
its not that i sometimes remember to heal Arioch. Its more i sometime forget to not heal Arioch
just want to clarify that
[...] possible that lack of DPS may have hurt us before. As one fellow blogger noticed, it does make quite the difference. But there’s always a doubt in the back of my head that [...]
/wave Ari and Tel
I just wanted to add that if anyone reading this is having trouble hitting 1k dps at level 80 or anyone who is having trouble mastering the basic techniques of their class, a Wiki has been set up specifically with this in mind. Easy-to-use, simple instructions for many classes and specs. Its not over the top with math and complex information like Elitist Jerks or others. Just straightforward rotation, gear and enchant ideas. Its completely open for anyone to edit and there aren’t any advertisements or banners at all.
http://www.raider101.com.
I personally recommend the Frost Mage guide. =p
[...] skillfully crafting a blog post about something and just when your about ready to post it someone else steals your thunder (although in this case my thunder is a whimper compared to that of [...]
Loken with poor heals and dps = fail.
2200 DPS shouldn’t have been an issue for the tank. I can stay *way* the hell ahead of that as a tank in 1/2 blues.
You’re absolutely right you know, and this is one of the reasons I refuse to pug now. I can’t stand playing russian roulette with DPS. Some easy Heroics, it doesn’t matter, on others it does. Loken is a prime example of where massive DPS makes it 10 million times easier.
I also get gobsmacked at how much some people fail at their classes. I know there are some amazing DKs out there, just like there are some amazing hunters, but because of the vast majority of shit ones they have a very bad rep. Some DK we pugged in Naxx25 a few days back was doing a jaw dropping 400 DPS. We found out he was levelling his weapon skill… in a Heroic Raid. He was swiftly removed.
That aside, I do sometimes despair at how terribly some people play their characters. I know it takes a bit of time and skill to be good at it, but It’s really not that difficult to work out an even half-decent rotation.
[...] if I don’t give it my all, the group dies. A perfect example can be found in a post from Critical QQ about how a run didn’t go well because the other DPS stunk. Without good DPS, you die. [...]
mabd said : “Maybe its just the wave of people who are at the tail end of the leveling curve. I mean, if it takes you 3 months to go from 70 to 80…”
Remember you’re also starting to get new players who have gone straight through Azeroth -> Outland -> Northrend without ever having done the end-game raiding thing.
(that would be me)
I once outdpsed a warlock in VoA… I had res sickness and broken armor.
though i was pulling 900 dps…
It’s not even just the raw numbers being more important, I’ve noticed. Paying attention and reacting appropriately seem more important than in the past, as well. Heroic Ahn’Kahet has been really rubbing this fact in to me lately…
First boss: If DPS doesn’t switch to the Guardians immediately, (and kill them quickly, of course) the healer gets swarmed by immune-to-everything bugs and dies.
Second boss: If DPS doesn’t get back on the vampire as soon as he reappears and burn down his shield, things can go badly.
Mushroom boss: Pay attention to mushrooms, everyone!
Floaty-lady boss: If DPS doesn’t get the disciples down, tank is in for a world of hurt.
Herald: Anyone who can’t kill four evil twins all by his lonesome is fertilizer.
Not to mention there are some fairly nasty abilities the trash mobs can pull – interrupts and not standing in fire and such can really help. It is definitely possible to wipe in there for hours, even with DPS that can put out solid numbers when standing and nuking. People who can not only DPS but DPS appropriately can make the difference between headaches and smooth sailing.
[...] for me to be carried through by better geared players, especially as good dps is now important (as Euripedes makes clear in his blog post), especially for those tough [...]
The poor dps I sometimes see is justification to be kicked from the group. We did 10 man VoA last night and the warlock was lucky to break 500-700 dps. Thats just a waste of a spot in the run. I have done more dps than that as a Priest 72 against mobs as Holy spec. A total waste of bandwidth. And you know that the Warlock fool rolled in the drops too.
@valaraukador
What were you doing in VoA with rez sickness?