Much has been made of these newfanged “morality” style quests. Rohan, for instance, railed long and hard against them, and more recently, little “death by fire” gnomey has had some… issues with the whole deal.
My question is this: where and how, precisely, does the whole idea of “morals” translate to the game?
The real me would probably think twice (or three or four times) before killing another person, would never intentionally torture someone, and most certainly wouldn’t mindlessly slaughter hundreds of annoying things (as much as the real me would like to).
The in game me, the Euripedes, the terrifying mage inside me, wouldn’t hesitate to do any of those things.
Sentence a tribe of Furbolg to death? Sure thing!
Extinguish the leaders of the Scarlet Monastery? Done and done!
Slaughter dozens of alliance children? FOR THE HORDE!
Kill fifty elves on a whim? It’ll be fun!
Is it because I’m a Horde player, and pretty much always have been? I haven’t really heard of any purist Horde players voicing any concerns over these torture quests.
Take the Kaloo… Kalwak… Kazoo… Walrus people. All those babies collected? By now, we all know they’re being cooked. Pike felt dirty and refused to ever do the quest again once she hit exalted.
By comparison, His Excellency Ratshag complains that they won’t share the recipe with him.
Come to think of it… every one of Ratter’s characters probably wouldn’t even bat an eye at killing puppies, except Kinnavavavoom or whatever her name is. I mean, I knew plate was revealing, but damn, that’s some mighty fine paladin bubbles, if ya catch my drift. You can Seal of Command me any day, baby.
Where was I?
Ahh yes. Rats wants to cook them, Dangermouse would bake them without a second though, Ellspeth would think the whole situation delightful, Alayda’s practically an outright cannibal, and Galertruby… well… Galertruby.
It could be the fact that Horde have… well… somewhat looser morals than the other races. C’mon, the entire faction wages war and kills as a freaking hobby. I don’t really think most of ‘em would consider eating children and torture as odd, let alone a morally bankrupt option.
Daily Itinerary of a Horde Member
- Wake up
- Kill something
- Eat it
- Pick pretty flowers
- Slaughter alliance
- Blow something up
- Burn something down
- Lunch
Even if you don’t really roleplay that much, or ever, is it just “easier” to do questionable things on a Horde character? Even the Tauren really don’t have doubts about committing genocide.
Could it be a class thing instead? Druids, for instance, would probably have some difficulty needlessly slaying random animals, whereas warlocks would kill all the cute fuzzy creatures on the way as a point of pride.
Maybe it’s both?
Paladins probably have plenty moral obligations and a very clear sense of right and wrong. Most mages think the whole “moral” thing boring at best. What the crap does fire care about good and evil? It’s just fire. It burns stuff.
When the Dalaran mage said that he took an oath that prevents him from carrying out torture, my first thought was “Ha! More for me, then”. Upon further reflection, I realized that the Dalaran mage was basically a coward.
He was unwilling to do what needed to be done. When it was down to the wire, when we needed that information to win the day, he couldn’t do it. His pathetic moral codes prevented him from doing what was necessary.
Enter the troll mage, not only perfectly willing to do the job, but wholly enjoying the entire thing.
This is sort of way out there philosophical thinking, but what if… what if this is the entire purpose of the Horde?
It comes up every now and then in novels and some TV shows. A group of good guys, going about saving people and saving the day, always has that one guy… that one guy that “accidentally” kills prisoners. The one that, when given the order “shoot to stun” shoots to kill.
Without exception, this guy is always needed. The band of good guys capture a bad guy, and of course none of them can kill the prisoner. Maybe they just can’t, maybe they think he deserves to be tried in a court of law.
So they drag the bad guy around with him, keeping a guard posted to watch him, sharing their food, water, and even medical supplies with it, even if they really can’t afford to do any of that.
Enter that one guy, who says “Yeah, I’ll guard him tonight”, and accidentally stabs the prisoner in the head. Repeatedly. With bullets.
Of course, the rest of the good guys are royally pissed off. Except now, they’re so much better off because the prisoner is dead.
Perhaps, in the grand scheme of things, this is the purpose of the Horde. To commit the dark acts that no one else is willing to go through with.
Present a member of the Alliance with a morally ambiguous task, and they fall to pieces.
Present a member of the Horde with a morally ambiguous task, and the task is done immediately, efficiently, and properly, with as much bloodshed as needed (and often more).
The Death Knights seem to be the only exception to this. Alliance DK’s are brutal and vicious, as ruthless killers should be.
What if Arthas attempts to redeem himself? What if, halfway through the fight, he breaks down, begs for mercy, saying over and over again “Jaina… I’m sorry… I’m so sorry…”
What would you do?
If you answered “Put his sorry ass down while his concentration is broken”, congratulations, you’ve done what must be done.
Thankfully, most of the overall wars have been relatively light on morality. Demons? Undead? A hive mind under the control of an old god who’s only aim is to enslave everything? Not a whole lot of moral ambiguity there.
“Arise, C’thulhu, and emb – OH SWEET MOTHER OF ZEUS THE MOON!”
I don’t even remember what this post was initially about. Oh well.
I dunno. I can see your point about Horde in general being more brutal and willing to get the job done, but these days I think plenty of Alliance personas are capable of making the tough choices. You’ve touched on this before, but that’s another good reason we got King Wrynn back. I don’t think he’d hesitate to hack someone to pieces if it meant saving his kingdom (and with those scary swords it wouldn’t be hard).
It is good to be a mage though, and I play in a similar fashion to you. Morality doesn’t bother me too much. I do what needs to be done. I have my allegenaces, and I stick to them, but I don’t spend too much time dwelling on weather it’d be considered morally right or wrong. I just set stuff on fire or turn it into a block of ice. Then set it on fire.
I suppose I play my druid a bit more conservatively, especially while Resto. Part of that is because resto druids suck for damage anywhere, and therefore grinding mobs would be akin to rubbing ones head against sandpaper, but on my Druid I tend to avoid conflict whenever possible. Killing only what’s required. Unless I’m feral, then I’m a big angry bear and I kill everything that gets in my way.
Morality is a funny thing.
I was cackling all through your post!
You hit the spot – hence my loathing of the puritan allies. I actually love the BELF’s was it not for the paladin’s – Blizz could atleast have called the something else – Paladin’s are defender of all good and pink! Not exactly how I see the arrogant belf’s or anyone in the horde for that matter.
I had the same feeling while doing the final q as a DK – suddenly everything was pink and soft, even though we all owed our allegiance to the Witchking.
* Wake up
* Kill something
* Eat it
* Pick pretty flowers
* Slaughter alliance
* Blow something up
* Burn something down
* Lunch
Have you been peeking in my daily calendar again? Oops, gotta run! Gotta go kill some wolves. I hope they drop something I can cook. Also, I need to get some more herbs to level my alchemy. It’s going to be a busy day!
Gnome Daily To-Do:
* Wake up
* Run away from that tauren
* Jingle a sprocket
* Run away from that forsaken
* Cook some breakfast
* Create a Schematic for titanium death ray
* Mount a Rabbit
* Tickle some alliance
* Run away from that blood elf
* Lunch
Yeah, it’s kind of funny to me the way I change how I play when I’m on my Alliance paladin. I have a mage too, and when I play him it’s moral indifference time. But on the paladin, I have to find reasons to do certain quests. Like the DEHTA quests in Borean Tundra. Approaching these quests as a paladin, I was like, “I sympathize with wanting to protect nature, but I’d rather save people than animals, and you guys seem a little…bloodthirsty.” Then the Nesingwary guys tried to hunt ME, so I had to bring the hammer down.
Or the torture quest for the Dalaran guy…I was annoyed that the mages were against torture but fine with getting someone to do it for them. I tried to use the torture device on the Dalaran mage to express my frustration, but it automatically used it on the prisoner. At that point, having already started, I finished the job.
Then there’s another quest in Howling Fjord, where you get asked to test out a plague cure on a captured Vyrkul. A cure concocted by a drunk gnome. I refused to do it early on, but later learned more about the Vyrkul and how they were competing to become minions of the Lich King anyway. So I didn’t feel as bad making the prisoner drink it then; I figured if it did turn him into Scourge he was going that direction anyway.
But yeah, thinking about where morality comes into a game…I dunno, I think it depends on how much RP you put into an MMORPG. I don’t really pretend I’m my character, but I do like to act consistently with what that character is supposed to stand for. More seriously, the torture quest in particular bugs me because torture is an issue we’re grappling with in real life, and I think that quest reinforces bad ideas about it. One of the arguments against torture is that it rarely works, the information you get is unreliable. But in WoW, it totally works, Jack Bauer style! I don’t really like that.
oh em eff gee… Great post.
I had the same feeling about the Kalauak “bag a dozen raccoon guy pups” quest… That is too funny. I wanted to save one and keep him as a companion, not hand a sackful of them over to wind up in the WoW equivalent of a George Foreman grill.
As far as morality goes, I constantly find myself waffling over the centerline. Last time I found myself working on a lowbie Alliance toon (my home and high-levs are all horde) I came to the “Maclure Vineyards” quests in Elwynn, the chain which involves helping young lovers elope… GOD I wanted to be able to kite one of them over to Hogger and watch him kick the shit out one of those fresh-faced whinebots.
Grandma needs help baking a pie? Let me bring my Troll Shaman over here and stick a totem where the sun doesn’t shine. Gather your OWN fricking cooking mats. /slap
On the other hand, sometimes a quest will really tug my heartstrings. Again, more Alliance here, but a few which come to mind are: The NElf who has lost his mate, and you bring them back together for a brief reunion on the dock at Auberdine; The baby hippogryph you release from a troll-cage at the top of Jintha A’Lor and his “parents” come to lead him away. *sniff*
Horde side, I always help the turtle who needs an escort all the way across Tanaris to meet his mate.
These all somehow make me feel like “I did a good thing.” Wow… RL emotional impact from a pixelated good deed! How odd. But as evidenced from the number of examples I cite, I agree that there seems to be more of this kind of backstory content on the Alliance side.
Even cross-factional “player interaction” issues… There are times when I will help an Alli who may be struggling against an elite, and then others when I will /sit and munch a sammich while they struggle and hope they bite the dust. It really depends on the day. Chaotic Neutral, I guess.
As I’ve said in other similar posts… I have killed TENS OF THOUSANDS of enemies for no other reason than they had something I wanted. How can I balk at a little torture? At least HE gets to live.
Should Blizzard have put a choice in? It would have been ice.
Does this quest somehow offend me personally? Nope, not really.
I think it’s not necessarily a Horde/Alliance thing. I think it’s based on each individual character, and how they feel about it.
My Gnome Mage loves killing things, but my Undead Priest would think twice about a lot of the questionable quests.
Either way, I like that these quests that have a little more thought and moral grey area are available. They’ve made me actually follow quest lines and think about what I’m doing, rather than just skimming quest text for directions!
Lol I wrote a post today about how things in game do not trasnslate to things you would normally do IRL. Nice article…..for a Horde
Wow …
That’s … kinda dark … and intense …
Interesting point about magery, though. My fire mage is the only character I have who feels morally ambiguous. He … really likes fire, and really likes lighting things on fire, and sentient things just have a much more appealing way of burning than non-sentient things—the screams, the flailing, it really adds to the shape and flow of flames … it’s definitely a plus that my little pyro has been graced with some socially sanctioned enemies to set aflame … orcs and demons and undead …
Just an FYI: Some of us have the opposite problem that you’re facing. Some of us kill more in RL than our in-game counterparts do. I’m just saying.
Killing aggressive foes.. yeah!
Lighting them up like fire works.. hell yeah!
But, yeah I get caught with the torture quests… I just kinda wish there were two mutually exclusive quests options.
1) Torture the bugger… teach him a lesson.. after all he is a Death Knight…
2) Use those Arcane powers long forgotten since cheating on the ol’ Magery exams, and extract the info from his mind….
Mind you I too quite a bit of joy out of collecting the PvP set (That takes Class), when I took down a Death Knight that was raping the Flight Master in Auberdine…
For all that, I am loving the content in the new quest lines… I just don’t particularly like it when my moral code of practice is challenged to that extent.
Reminds me of an interview I heard a few years back with an American that was discussing the conditioning required for the armed forces.
He was saying that on 5% of bullets hit during the 1st world war… because it was against our moral upbringing to kill.. so after that the armed forces introduced training to shot first and ask questions later… it worked, much more successful of the ensuing wars…
Problem was when the ex-servicemen got home and couldn’t balance the conditioning with the society that they had returned to.
Anyway… knew it was a bit serious.. or maybe a bit conspiracy theory… but that’s what came out when I started typing…
Gnomer & Out!
Glad I’m not the only one that thinks the Walrus people are cooking the Wolvar pups. They could at least share the coonskin hats, slippers, and anything else they’re making with the tiny little pelts.
“mighty fine paladin bubbles” ROFLMAO
I’m enjoying the new morally ambiguous quests. Much more interesting than kill X number of Y and return with .
@ Gôdefroy
Belf pallies are also known as Blood Knights and they don’t really follow the same tenets as their Alliance counterparts. Roll one and run it up to the point where you learn Redemption. That quest line really sets the tone for how they feel about their place in the world. Arrogant bastards, I <3 them.
I dunno… Arthas started out alliance.
The whole alliance motif seems to be…
“Wait for someone else to take care of it, let it get to such critical proportions that it threatens the horde, then watch the orcs deal with it… those barbarians!”
In short, the alliance is France.
OTOH, I never bought into that CoS Uther propaganda. I’ve never seen a paladin shirk from killing someone that was
1. lower level
2. fighting for his her/life against mobs
However, I’m not sure torture is part of the Horde ethos. As a part of training, sure. But on enemies? Just kill them. Cruelty for the sake of cruelty is how we got into this mess in the first place.
[...] have come across several posts lately regarding some Northrend quests. Gnomeageddon, Bigbearbutt, Critical QQ, and more have remarked on the quests in Northrend that are rather questionable in morality. The [...]
Um…WoW is a game right? A game that allows us to escape from the doldrums and have some kick-ass fun with bad and good thrown in for variety is what games are all about. Even fairy tales have gruesome issues. Ever read ‘Babes in the Woods’? Not a “feel good”! What about Gretel shoving the witch into the oven? Why couldn’t she just distract the witch and free Hansel that way instead of resorting to violence?
In real life I’m not going around killing loonies and cultist and doing the /love on a rabbit only to realize I hit the wrong targeting button and killed it with my staff instead. In game I’m going to say “oops” and move on. I did the torture thing for Kirin Tor and though I may have felt a little bad (not much), I was happy to have completed another quest. My hubby just laughed when it was his turn to torture, saying “oh, I see, he wants ME to do his dirty work”. Then he did it.
As an Alliance rogue, I’m more than happy to mercilessly annihilate anyone in my way, doubly so if I can look good while doing it. In most cases, the people (and animals and everything else) I’m escorting to extinction are in need of a good, hard killin’.
That said, and this is probably where the lines between the Khol behind the keys and the Khol with the swords start to blur, there are certain things that are Not Done(tm). Where war and destruction are necessary, they should be prosecuted in as rapid and overwhelming a manner as possible. There’s nothing wrong with swatting a fly with a Buick if it shows the other flies that you are not to be fucked with. When prosecuting war, there are Valid Targets(tm) Semi-Valid Targets(tm) and Invalid Targets(tm).
Valid Targets(tm) are combatants, armed and otherwise, actively seeking to do harm to you and your forces. These should be destroyed as quickly as possible.
Semi-Valid Targets(tm) are combatants and sympathizers actively or passively aiding Valid Targets(tm) in their goals. However, since they do no pose a clear and present threat to your forces, they should be dissuaded when possible and detained when not possible. Only when neither detaining nor dissuading are not possible should they be eliminated.
Invalid Targets(tm) are non-combatants who do not pose a threat, immediate or otherwise, to your forces. This includes Valid and Semi-Valid Targets(tm) that had been detained, also known as prisoners of war.
It is often said that the measure of a man and, by extension, a society is often found in how he/they treat those whom they have power over. For example, we treat prisoners humanely, not because we expect the same treatment from our enemies, but because it is what demonstrates that our ideology is superior to the ideology of our enemy’s. It is for this reason the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict were developed. Granted, these things don’t exist in Azeroth in any kind of form other than the actions of individuals, such as Tirion Fordring.
To this end, my (and by extension the in-game Khol’s) first reaction upon being “asked” (is it really asking when they hand you the torture stick and say “oh, I’ll just be over here ignoring you and anything you do…”) to torture a prisoner of war for information was repugnance. This was only doubled when the reason given was because while the mage was unwilling to get his own hands dirty and because it would “violate” his oath.
Now, maybe I’m crazy here, but in my mind, if you take an oath that forbids torture, that doesn’t mean you get to suggest that someone else do the torture for you just so you get to keep a clean conscience and uphold the hollow words of your oath. This one quest put me firmly on the side of Malygos and the Blue Dragonflight. Later, after learning of some of the more egregious violations of humanoid rights of the Blue Dragonflight, I was happy to side with the Wyrmrest Accord against them. The Kirin Tor, though, are persona non grata in my book.
Yes, I still did the damn quest, purely because not doing the quest isn’t a viable option, since it locks you out of many other following quests. Really, I’m sure Blizzard knew this quest would be quite the polarizing issue, but it would have been nice to have an option to say, “No, I don’t think I will do your dirty work for you, I’ll get the information another way.” and then allow you to find the information in a different way.
Okay, my tirade is done, you can have your blog back now.
I’ve been thinking about it a lot today, from an RPG perspective.
My mage doesn’t have much in the way of a moral compass. He falls into the category of people who do things because they can be done, not because they should be done. If he were a scientist on Earth, he would probably be mutating mice to have 6 legs just to see if he could and have fun while doing it. Mice with only 5 legs would be incinerated.
My death knight would have the most trouble dealing with these quest lines. After being forced to slaughter innocents under the control of the Lich King he feels responsible for his actions, even though he had no free will to speak of. He has been given a chance to atone for those wrong doings and is now being asked to sink back into the muck from which he has so recently risen out of. But, he is a realist and recognizes that having already been branded a monster, who better to carry out these tasks that need doing? With a heavy heart he will “do the dirty work” so that the next person doesn’t have to face the dilemma and soil their own soul, as he considers his already lost.
End result, they both complete the quests but for different reasons and only the mage is laughing while doing it.
Some of my guildmates brought up this morality question shortly after WotLK, in reference to the DK starting quests. To me, it’s quite simply a game. My character killing things in game is no reflection of my own morality. I mean, my hubby plays GTA and I’m not worried about him beating me up for my money. >.> Just sayin’. Besides… you have to admit it was HILARIOUS when one of those citizens said they pooped themselves.
Then again, I play mostly Horde… /shrug
As for the Kirin Tor torture quest…. did you know you can KEEP shockin’ the unlucky prisoner after he’s given you the info? Trust me, it works. He just keeps saying it’s cruel because he already gave me the information…
And the pups… I totally knew it. 12 wolvar pup nuggets to go. *nodnod*
Is three kinds of buggers in the world:
Thems what is yer tribe / team / guild
Thems what pay you or sell ya stuff
Thems what prolly needs ta die.
Ain’t nobody else.
Alliance Mage player here. I confess to being a bit shocked at the torture quest – I did it, but it went against the grain. I agree that, were I a bitter and angry troll/undead/belf mage, rather than human, it would have been easy to rationalize from a RP point-of-view. My character is a realist, quite capable of acting without mercy when necessary (and sometimes when it isn’t – IMO, anything that’s dead should NOT move around, and you need to blast it until it stops), but there were two disturbing thoughts that went through my head as I clicked “accept”;
1, torture probably doesn’t work (I know I would say anything that someone torturing me wanted to hear, make stuff up, whatever to get the pain to stop) and is therefore, at best, a waste of time and energy, while at worst a source of dangerously inaccurate information; and
2, it’s against the rules of the Kirin Tor, the biggest, most powerful organization of magi there is… And I still wonder, will this count against me when I apply for membership?
My mage isn’t bitter or angry, far from it. He just doesn’t place a very high value on the lives of those around him. =)
Oh, and @Khol – /agree with just about everything you say here, except that maybe the actions of one Kirin Tor member on his own shouldn’t cause you to write off the whole organization. Every large organization has its bad apples.
@Miles
Well, the rest of them haven’t exactly impressed me much, either. Besides, magic NEEDS to be brought under control and the Kirin Tor certainly aren’t the ones who are going to do it. Really, if it weren’t for the fact that Malygos is going all Holocaust (oh, yeah, I just invoked Godwin’s Law) all over the place, I’d be more likely to side with him rather than the Red Dragonflight. I’m more interested in protecting the innocent than punishing the guilty.
To be honest the only reason I stopped doing that steal-the-babies quest is cause other people always take them away from under your nose and it bugs me. I find the premise hilarious. /cough
The ONLY thing the alliance are good for is making a chicken lay an egg so Goratrix can have his Westfall Chicken pet !
FOR THE HORDE !