Following up on the “battlegrounds are full of idiots” thing.
Why?
Why is it that the majority of people in battlegrounds are either intentionally or unintentionally being idiots?
The way I see it, there are four demographics of your modern BG dweller:
- THE NOOB – they show up in the battleground, wearing greens/blues, or “welfare” (gigglesnort) epics, and demonstrate a complete lack of skill in their class and the tactical skill of a cucumber.
- THE “PRO” – they show up in the battleground, sporting current season/last season gear and act like the Noob. Quite often worse, as the Noob actually does things (albeit badly or wrong), the “Pro” does nothing.
- THE ENTHUSIAST – they show up in the battleground, sporting anywhere from random greens to current season arena gear. They generally have a high number of honourable kills as these people have been involved in PvP for a very, very long time. These people don’t mind much whether they win or lose, they just want a good fight.
Now, to apply these practically.
HORDE WINS
NOOB: [In BG chat] haha those [expletive deleted] alliance cant do [expletive deleted]! Will invariably exaggerate their own role, probably erroneously thinking the victory was entirely their responsibility.
“PRO”: Exits battleground, queues for the next. Is moderately pleased that it was a win, in the same way you’d be moderately pleased if you found a quarter. It really doesn’t make much of a difference, but hey, it’s a quarter. You could buy some candy with that.
ENTHUSIAST: A win is a win, but only if it’s a win. Soundly annihilating a bunch of obviously clueless people in greens when your team is decked out in, at least, S2 gear isn’t really a win. At best, it’s a hollow victory that won’t even make them smile. On the other hand, a win win is something to be celebrated and remembered fondly. Enthusiasts don’t want crushing victories over weaker teams, they want what I can only described as a fight.
HORDE LOSES
NOOB: [In BG chat] omfg i cant believe how [expletive deleted] retarded you people are. [blasphemy], learn to play, you [procreation!] noobs!!1 Obviously, they were doing great, it was everyone else who sucked.
“PRO”: Exits battleground, queues for the next. A couple seconds of frustration is had due to the loss, in the same way you’d be frustrated if you pushed a “4″ when trying to call a friend rather than a “1″.
ENTHUSIAST: A loss is a loss, but only if it’s a loss. Getting completely destroyed by some other team that vastly outguns you (think premade), is not something an enthusiast likes to participate in. Indeed, it is their second most hated thing in battlegrounds (the first being the “Pro”). On the other hand, if it was a solid fight, if they can type “good game” and mean it even during a loss, it wasn’t really a “loss” then, was it?
The Noob is there to win. Doesn’t care what that means. Could give a damn if it was a fair fight. Egotistical and self centered, they are unpleasant to be around and are the most visible reason of why people dislike battlegrounds. Usually clueless, about how their class works, how other classes work, and how the battleground itself works.
The Noob hates other Noobs, lashes out at Enthusiasts, and wants to be a “Pro”.
The “Pro” is there to earn currency, with little consideration whether it comes from wins or losses. They would prefer wins, but won’t expend much, if any, effort to make that happen. These guys have invariably been doing battlegrounds for a very, very long time. They can remember Old AV. More often than not, they can remember before there was even such a thing as a battleground. Thanks to Noobs, they have given up on trying.
The “Pro” no longer feels strongly about the other archetypes. They have adopted an attitude of apathy due to watching BG games end in a loss time and time again, regardless of the effort they put in.
If I try I end up carrying our team and the game lasts longer, but we still lose.
Therefore I don’t participate and we get out faster. Win/win.
~ Daays, <Real Mature>, Tichondrius
Because every time I queue for a battleground I get paired with keyboard turning clickers who don’t understand the basic concept of how to win a battleground. If you get paired with enough of these people then you will lose no matter how hard you try.
~ Magdain, <Dread>, Cho’gall
The “Pro”, whenever he does feel anything, absolutely loathes The Noob. They cannot understand Enthusiasts, as all “Pro”s were once an Enthusiast.
The Enthusiast loves PvP for the sake of PvP. The adrenaline rush of fighting other living players, the delicious taste of a hard earned victory, capping a graveyard that neatly traps alliance forces; this is what an Enthusiast wants. An Enthusiast doesn’t PvP for honour or glory. An Enthusiast doesn’t care what colour your shoulders are.
An Enthusiast PvP’s because it’s fun to do so.
The Enthusiast dislikes The Noob, but hates The “Pro”. Ok, not quite, that was a little misleading. Simply being there to do nothing, earn currency and then leave is anathema to everything The Enthusiast believes in. Enthusiasts don’t really hate The “Pro”s, but rather their attitude. What The Enthusiast truly hates is “why try?”.
At least The Noobs care if they win or lose.
To be continued…
My feeling:
I had a lot more fun in battlegrounds when I was first starting, and I thought that the tokens mattered. 1 versus 3 tokens – if you try to win, you get better rewards.
At 70, gathering honor points is a lot more crucial than gathering tokens. Honor doesn’t change that strongly on a win or a loss. The key for gathering honor is to give up all defense and all strategy, and just be near where the fighting is.
The realization that strategy doesn’t matter, defense doesn’t matter, just go where the fighting is, made battlegrounds less fun for me.
@jacob
I was under the impression that performance mattered greatly in accruing honor points. In AB, EotS, and AV honor only ticks up when certain incremental values of resources are gathered or reinforcements are slain. A 2000-0 loss or 0-600 loss earns no honor points.
“The realization that strategy doesn’t matter, defense doesn’t matter, just go where the fighting is”
Ladies and gentlemen, the attitude of a “Pro”. Case and point.
This is what happens when an Enthusiast burns out. You don’t quit, you keep at it, not having fun, just earning what you need and moving on.
That’s called “work”, only you’re paying to be able to work.
Interesting…
oh – Can I be a cross Pro and enthusiast… – well at least a pro that hasn’t quite developed that level of apathy…..
I accept that I will lose – I am over throwing up macros to increase the chance of winning as it relys on people actually listening.. and I don’t have that much faith that they will,
I try and offer encouragment, and defuse the noobs and their rants, and its been refreshing to see so many “NO” responses to noobs when they say ” Just let them win.. ” I think a clearer distinction between those who care to try and those who don’t is happening.
-
I’m still an Enthusiast. I’ve been doing PvP before Battlegrounds even existed and I’m still having fun. And you’re right: the Noob is annoying, but the Pros are was really drive me bonkers. I can’t stand when people feel the need to cave in with little effort. I play to fight and not to win.
In a way, I miss the days when Battlegrounds offered little to no tangible rewards. Sure, you got gear, but the gear was negligible when compared to what you could acquire from raiding. Titles garnered some people respect, but at least they required participation to acquire in any sort of timely manner. Without the current incentives most people played to have fun.
I think I am a nub (rather than noob), striving for Enthusiast, but often falling into Pro.
I do love it (but my 1st love is still PvE), and will go all out when I am in there, hope I make the right decisions, but do suffer from the end of BG, exit & rejoin mentality… mainly cause I want to get back in and try to make a bigger difference next time.
it is not about the honor or gear though… it’s just to play for the joy of it (or on occasions, to kill time)
A close PvP battle win, be it Arena or BG, is one of the most fun things in WoW. More adrenaline, more yelling, more fist pumping, more RL rewarding. I’m mainly PvE but I do love a good PvP.
Is this just about level 70 battlegrounds? Because when I’m playing my lowbie twinks (19, 29, 39 and 49), I’m definitely an Enthusiast — I want the match to have a roughly equal number of twinks on both sides, and for our side to emerge victorious, after a good, hearty fight.
But when I play my lowbie non-twinks, or my 70s, it’s just for gear. There are too many premades (on both sides) in our battlegroup (Rampage) for level 70 BGs to be consistently fun. I think that should be a fourth demographic — The Grinder. The Grinder cares about winning or losing only to the extent of their current marks/honor status, and their estimation of how much more they need in marks/honor to achieve their gear targets.
The skill and gear of Grinders varies wildly, because even if they are a veteran PvPer, they might be working on gearing up an alt. Conversely, they might have great gear from raiding or even Arena (for some people, Arena skills don’t translate well to battlegrounds) yet very new (and thus clueless) about this “battleground stuff”.
The Grinder hates Noobs and Pros, if they’re experienced enough to recognize those demographics, because the incompetence and/or inaction of those demographics reduce the chances of winning, or, even if we win, they prolong the wins and thus make the grind longer. And they like Enthusiasts only in close matchups, because that’s the demographic that’s mostly likely to tip such matches in our favor. In a match that looks like an easy win or a sure loss, however, the Grinder doesn’t want the Enthusiast to pick unnecessary fights just for the pure satisfaction of fighting; they’d rather just coast to victory or certain defeat as quickly as possible.
Even when I’m grinding for gear, though, three things I will *never* do, are
1) skipping from one BG to another just because things don’t look like they’re going well (I believe in seeing things through to their completion), or
2) advocating “honor farming” strategies which endanger the win (e.g. capping the wrong towers/graveyards at the wrong times in AV), even if I need honor more than marks, or
3) caving in to the “just let them win” mentality, under any circumstances. As Meg of Out of Mana pointed out recently (http://outofmana.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-rules-part-ii.html), “The person in power does the letting, not the other way around”. If you’re giving up; you’re not “letting” anyone do anything. You’re just assuming a position of powerlessness.
“Is this just about level 70 battlegrounds?”
Whatever end game you have set for yourself.
“caving in to the “just let them win” mentality, under any circumstances”
You sound like an Enthusiast to me.
Even if you do it for the gear only, it’s the attitude with which you approach it that matters.
hey! heey! heyheyhey! log into dungeon runners! we wanna run vergrim!
Oh yeah!
Uhm…. woops? Kinda got… carried away by WoW there…
I got a new belt though!
[...] don’t like. I have a pretty competitive nature, and I don’t like to lose. According to Euripedes, I am an “Enthusiast” turned [...]
My attitude changes from BG to BG. I never quit trying in any BG, but sometimes there is little point in trying. Like when you need a 4 or 5 cap in AB to win. If there is a feasible chance to win, I usually call out instructions and try to help us win. More marks does mean more honor. The more marks you get, the more you can turn in for the repeatable daily.
I absolutely hate when I am in AB and we start out down 3-2 in bases and some nub says “Just let them 5 cap”. We have been in the BG for less than a minute. At least give it an honest try before giving up.
I think I’ll have to go with darraxus on this one and say that your demographic can indeed change depending on the BG.
For EotS and AB I love a good matchup. I love it when targets change hands a lot and if there are huge battles going with either side fighting nail and tooth over every objective. I don’t mind losing and I am only impressed by rolling over a team with little or no resistance here. As long as it’s a good match it’s a very nice experience.
In WSG I absolutely loathe it when teams are evenly matched. Flags never get returned to base…. battles draw out forever with infinite fighting going on all over the place and no way to add any kind of strategy. People don’t listen to the BG leader and I want to strangle my team mates half of the time knowing full well that my own incompetence is a significant part of the problem due to fairly small team sizes. I do keep my expletives to myself but I’d say WSG turns me into a classic noob, must win bg… must….
AV is AV… I have done so many AV’s I can barely call it sane anymore. A win is nice, a loss stings a little but no real problem and I tend to go wherever the wind blows me provided there’s enough people there to get some kind of honor income. In AV I absolutely prefer if the enemy gets steamrolled so I can get my marks, my bonus honor and queue up for the next round. I rarely expend too much effort in AV… stick with the crowd… hope there’s some defense there so we can win. AV would be my preferred spot to fish if it weren’t frowned upon.
“I don’t mind losing and I am only impressed by rolling over a team with little or no resistance here”
should’ve been
I don’t mind losing and I am only minorly impressed by rolling over a team with little or no resistance here
sorry about the extra post there…
Yeah WSG is the 1 BG I simply avoid. AV, EotS and AB will all end up with a winner in a reasonable amount of time if the teams are evenly matched. I have been in WSGs where after 15 mins the score is still 0-0. It can be fun to at the start when it’s evenly matched, but after a while it gets painful. For most BGs I love an even fight, but just not in WSG (Old AV was the same).
I guess the problem I have is knowing the difference while playing. I’m still very new to battlegrounds but i try for the objectives but get strategy mixed up in base capping maps. I’m some mix of the groups but probably mostly enthusiast.
It seems like it is easy to over exaggerate your own importance because you always are aware of your own actions. Which feeds the pro and noob attitudes of “you guys suck!” or “We always lose, it doesn’t matter!”
Also troubling to me is how easy I and presumably others get caught up in those attitudes, especially since they tend to be the loudest. Most of the time I find myself frustrated with the other player’s and say things out loud like “Just shut up and play the f-ing game”
Thanks for this kind of article and site. It helps educate me in BG/arena-ing and kind of renews some hope and faith that PVP can actually be as fun as I think it can.
I consider myself an enthusiast.
I don’t really need honor any more since I’m pretty much topped out for my arena rating.
But there are a few things I could still spend the points on.
But, I’m here for the slaying of the enemies!
I love a close game.
I don’t mind turtles a bit.
I hate it when people complain and actively do stuff to force our side to lose faster.
I hate it when my side does tactically stupid things like fighting strength with weakness (i.e. piecemeal attacks on Stables for 15 minutes when horde bottles us up in AB).
I love it when we work together.
I love it when healers heal.
And it was a total adrenalin rush to solo RH in AV and not have the horde defender team notice it.
Timer got down to a minute left before they sent a hunter & warrior to recap. And to hunt me!
Stealth hide-and-go-seek FTW
I wish that Bliz could come up with some incentive to discourage “PROs” from playing at all. They are a bore.
Noobs are funny and usually useless but they do try.
But wouldn’t you agree that winning = 3 badges. Thus: winning 1xall BGs = 3 turnings of badges for honor. Does that not make you aquire honor faster then loosing?
Especially if you time the going into a battleground with the daily BG.
(p.s. I’m new at pvp, so i’d say the same about myself as gnommeageddon did – i’m a nub/enthusiast that can despair at times. do bear with me if my assumption is faulty)
I’m definitely an enthusiast. The most fun recent AV I was in went for 45 minutes and the allies got Ivus out. Old school! Although not so old school that the same battle went for hours and hours heh. The ‘rush FH’ approach works (at least in my battle group) but it’s boring. I really enjoy a well matched well fought game. The apathy of the ‘Pro’ really really grinds my gears. I will NEVER give up even if the odds are tremendous. That’s just the way I roll.
At heart im an enthusiast but in reality I waver between hardcore enthusiast and hardcore pro.
An example. I will never “let” them win. I will always keep fighting no matter how hopeless the situation is. I will, however, queue multiple battlegrounds and happily zone out of a losing one in favor of a fresh one.
I am there for the dual purposes of gaining victory of live opponents in a test of skill – ie: competitive online gaming… but also i’m there because im chasing honor in order to buy some kind of new gear. I want the marks, I want the honor points, I want the win, but I also want the contest, I want the thrill of the fight.
The gear is just a mechanism for me to enable more thrilling fights against better opponents =)
It’s the eye of the tiger, it’s the thrill of the fight
Risin’ up to the challenge of our rival
And the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night
And he’s watchin’ us all in the eye of the tiger
Risin’ up, straight to the top
Have the guts, got the glory
Went the distance, now I’m not gonna stop
Just a man and his will to survive
[...] don’t like. I have a pretty competitive nature, and I don’t like to lose. According to Euripedes, I am an “Enthusiast” turned [...]
This is all one big generalization with some pretty massive stereotypes.
But, hey, it draws responses…
essentially, everyone has a sliding scale of two characteristics in a bg: Care and Effort. There is no direct comparison between care and ‘enthusiast’ or effort and ‘pro’, but for the most part, your average player cares a bit and trys a bit.
I think of all of this as an analogy to a joke I once heard:
Isn’t it interesting that when we’re driving, everyone who goes slower than us is an idiot and everyone who goes faster than us is crazy?
[...] of Lists, Euripedes over at Critical QQ believes “My PvP is Bigger than Yours, Part I” and Part II. Which category do you play [...]
[...] any Case for a great PVP read check out My PVP Is Bigger Than Yours: PartI PartII & [...]
[...] PartI [...]