*This is a shared topic through Blog Azeroth*
Like quite a few other MMO’s, WoW follows the holy trinity of Tank + Healer + DPS. The tank gets beat on, the healer keeps the tank alive, and the DPS kills whatever is hurting the tank. This is the tried and true formula for Dungeon raiding, or whatever it is people do in MMO’s.
So the true question is, does this need to be broken up? Does there need to be a fourth archetype added into this, to shake things up?
And most importantly, does WoW itself require this fourth archetype?
As Mooonfire eloquently described over here, there really is only one other “archetype” that could be considered, that of the “Denialist”.
We have our tanks, we have our damage dealers, we have our healers. The only remaining type of character we could have would be a utility class. A class that does little direct damage to foes, but can seriously mess them up in a way that would have the Russian mafia in fits of nausea. A class that does little direct healing to friends, but can seriously buff, assist, or otherwise make their friends more powerful.
We already have some features like this in the game. Let’s take a warrior for example, and lets look at some of the abilities we can consider to be “utility”, and not part of the trinity. (We’re only going to bring out a couple abilities here, just enough to prove our point, which I swear exists)
To hinder opponents indirectly, a warrior can use Demoralizing Shout, which reduces the attack power of all enemies within a certain radius. If thats not enough, he can then strip off some of their armor, thus rendering them more vulnerable to physical attacks. The, he can reduce the effects of any healing ability on his target by 50%. And if worst comes to worst, he can then fear all the enemies within a certain radius.
If we were to introduce a Denialist class, they would only have abilities like this. They would not have Heroic Strike, a powerful auto-attack, Rend, Charge and Intercept abilities. They would only have these abilities that mess up whatever the target is trying to do.
In essence, a denialist is an archetype who’s role is to prevent another archetype from doing theirs.
Turning a healer into a harmless piggy is a denialist action. That healer cannot heal while looking cute and munching on grass, and therefore is not fulfilling their role.
Counterspelling a mage, and locking out his spell schools, is a denialist action. A mage cannot deal damage while unable to cast any spells, and thus is not fulfilling there role.
Flipping sides here, the other aspect of a utility class would be assisting one’s allies to do their jobs better. For this, we’re going to use a Discipline priest as an example.
The priest can cast Prayer of Fortitude on a tanking archetype, giving them more hitpoints, and thus being better able to tank. The priest can cast Divine Spirit on the healer archetype, which will increase their mana regeneration, thus allowing them to better fulfill their role as a healer. Then, this same priest can cast Power Infusion on a DPS archetype, increasing the damage they deal with every spell. Which, obviously, makes them better at the dealing damage role… because… they’re dealing more damage… I didn’t need to say that, did I?
Anyways.
So a utility class would not be able to heal like a priest could. It would not be able to deal damage like a priest could. It could, however, buff his allies like a priest could. A utility class could:
- Increase the HP pool of all allies
- Increase the mana regeneration of all allies
- Provide a massive boost to an allies damage for a short time.
- Shield an ally from incoming damage for a short while
- Increase the armor of an ally for a short while
- Dispell buffs from enemies
- Cut in half all incoming damage on an ally for a short time
- Increase the damage dealt to a target by 5%
- Force an enemy to flee in fear
- Stun an enemy for a short time
- Cause an enemy to take damage equal to whatever healing ability next lands on them
- Drain the mana bar of an enemy, transferring that mana to an ally
- Cast a buff on an ally that makes their next 4 spells free from mana cost
And so on. This is the kind of abilities a utility class. Unable to tank, deal damage, or heal, they make everyone else better at their archetype.
So coming back to the initial question. Does WoW need a class like this?
Would it be fun to have a class like this? Darn tooting it would. It would be incredibly fun.
But… WoW doesn’t need it. There really isn’t any room for it. Games like Guild Wars have room for a utility/denialist style class, but WoW does not.
My reasoning is thus: WoW already has the idea of a utility/denialist in the game, it’s just not centered into a specific class. Every single idea you could have about what a denialist/utility class could do has already been implemented into the game
Looking at the 9 classes we currently have, every single one of them has “utility” or “denialist” abilities. It would be impossible to introduce this archetype into WoW, because it’s already there. It just doesn’t exist in it’s “pure” form, in the same way that there is no “pure” healer class, or “pure” DPS class, or “pure” tanking class. Let’s bust out a handy list, and see what WoW looks like as a Quartet of archetypes rather than a trinity.
- Druid – Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility
- Deathknight – Tank, DPS, Utility
- Hunter – DPS, Utility
- Mage – Tank, DPS, Utility
- Paladin – Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility
- Priest – Healer, DPS, Utility
- Rogue – DPS, Utility
- Shaman – Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility
- Warlock – Tank, DPS, Utility
- Warrior – Tank, DPS, Utility
Some of them might not be very good at a specific archetype, but they can still do them. A shaman, for example, makes for a very poor tank, but can still fulfill the role. A rogue may have very few utility functions, but they still exist. A retribution paladin may have lackluster DPS, but it is still a role it can fulfill.
My point is thus.
WoW does not need to add the concept of a new archetype, because all the archetypes are already present. WoW does not need to add a denialist, utility type class, because every single class in the game can already fulfill that role, to varying degrees.
As a final example, mages can provide food and water for our allies, cause our allies to gain more from healing effects, increase the mana pool of our friends, decrease the spell damage taken by allies, slow enemies, stun enemies, and turn enemies into sexy… err, cute farm animals.
I don’t think WoW has to have such a class, however it would be interesting if there WAS such a class initself all the same in some way.
I don’t know how such a class would function leveling But if there was such a class they would need some unique was of dpsing or using a opponents ability against themselves. Having the greater of their ability in denial of things or enhancing some ability of some kinds unique in some way. Does WoW really need the class, i don’t think so necessarily, can it add to the game yes i’m sure just making things more interesting.
There is a great trio of posts on the “5th-man” aka support class on Blessing of Kings:
http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-is-paladin.html
Also, have you ever played a discipline priest? They’re not great healers or dps, but they’re impossible to kill in PvP and are infinitely exciting to play.
I would really like to see the disc priests get some raid viability but still maintain their ability to buff the heck out of other people and not just themselves. That way they’d still function as sort of a support class, but could still maintain good dps.
Ret paladins have seen recent buffs, with more coming in 2.4, which i’m excited about, I hope to see more of them around.
@Pled: I raid heal as a Discipline Priest, and I can vouch for their ability to heal. My healing numbers are on par with both our Holy Pally and our Resto Druid. In addition my mana pool is bigger than it was as Holy and I have PI and PS as well to leverage through difficult boss phases.
As to the idea of a denialist archetype, I would jump at the chance to play such a role. I can imagine 5 mans without the need for a tank, or with 2 dps and only a hybrid healer needed.
@faithfulaffliction
With all due respect, if you’re healing is on par with your guild holy pally, your guild holy pally is SLACKING.
This is not a critique on priests. It’s simply the way Blizzard has built the holy pally.
[...] Euripedes [...]
It doesn’t look like Bliz is making a new archetype (like denialist) but it does appear that they continue to experiment with different class mechanics (Hunters & Rogues both DPS but the mechanic is very different).
I thought that a mechanic that would be interesting would be a “engineer” class who’s skills/abilities were ENTIRELY dependent on created items and reagents.
For a more fantasy RP aspect this class could be recast as a “conjuror”.
Mechanics already in play:
- melee DPS
- ranged DPS
- damage over time effects
- pets
- buffs/debuffs from applied spells
- buffs/debuffs from aura
- buffs/debuffs from stationary objects
- direct healing spells
- heal over time spells
- snares
- crowd control effects
- stealth
- buff stealing
- anti debuffs
And all of these already have many variations.
[...] tasks, while strengthening their own team. One of the reasons I really like this concept is that as Euripedes points out, some of the existing classes in WoW already have many disruptive abilities and I play [...]
If you look at WoW, and then look at the classes in wow, and then their roles. Adding a fourth archetype would be a very hard task to do without taking some abilities out of other classes. Blizzard has done a good job with balancing PvE mechanics, and unless they add a huge new aspect in WoTLK, I don’t really see another archetyped class having any real use.
Can you imagine trying to level a character to 70 that can do no damage at all? No party=No XP.
Ghostkid kinda hit the nail on the head as far as how Blizzard sees it from what I’ve read from them. No one class is supposed to be completely dependent on another class. Everquest used to be this way, Wow kinda broke that mold. From what I’ve heard, Everquest saw the evil of their ways, and you can now solo to 80 (or whatever their cap is now) where that used to be an impossible task.
There’s also the point of view that it’s hard to really credit what a class like this does. Think of the Paladin’s Blessings for example. If you look at the Damage Meters or Wow Web Stats, most of the increased damage/healing/tanking that’s associated from those buffs is credited to the person doing the actual damage, and not the paladin. So, as a Raid Leader, do you want another damage dealer or a buffer? In a 10-man, will that one buffer make up for the lost DPS spot? It’s hard to justify until proven true. Probably one of the reasons that Shadow Priests took so long to become raid viable, along with Protection and Retribution Paladins. Now, there’s very few raids that don’t run with at least one Shadow Priest.
That “No damage at all = No party = No XP” comment is pretty silly.
I played FFXI for a nice long time, and you know what most people’s prefered party member was? A Bard. They were a support class. They added party mana regen, party health regen, small heals, sleep, small damage. All in all everything they did was SMALL, “BUT” FFXI was a much larger scope game. Sometimes it could takes days to get a single level, even when playing all day.
A level 70 player facing a level 70 mob would die EVERY time. At best you could take a level 50 mob at 70, unless you were a Beast Master.
The reason Bards were loved is because they prevented your party from having almost any down time. The biggest reason WoW does not need a primary utility class is as pointed out, people have utilities. Other games have more specific roles for the classes.
All in all, WoW is a pretty easy and forgiving MMORPG.
In terms of the Denialist, at least as far as damage is concerned, you’ve basically described (at least according to my own playstyle) Survival. If you notice, the word almost sounds similar to Denialist, even.
My direct damage output is horrible. What I have been able to do in groups though is, where there’s (for example) a three mob pull, lock down both mobs one and two so that the tank only has one to deal with. There have been times in groups where I’ve actually told people that with me, dedicated CC rather than DPS as such is what they’re getting…I only really focus on DPS at all when soloing, and then only really because I don’t have anyone else who can do it.
The buffing aspect also already exists in the hybrids, for the most part. Interesting post though, definitely!
Without something like the “henchemen” in Guild Wars a “denialist” would have an impossible time solo leveling in WoW, unless they made it a part of the talent tree
You dont solo level a protection spec warrior unless you want to spend years to get to 70, you level fury/arms and then spec over to prot when its time for end game raiding.
a denialist class would only be possible with a simlar tree available, you would need a talent tree that would allow the player to solo level, with better DPS or whatever and then a pure denialist tree for raiding, that would cover all the ideas for that class talked about above….
of course then what do you do with all those bufffing / denial abilities currently held by other classes? would you revamp every other class as well? Might as well come out with WoW 2nd Edition if thats the case….
Like other people said, the main problem with this would be the leveling. One way to overcome this would be have (as goratrix said) either a DPS/tanking/pet/whathaveyou tree, or if it was hero class. Hero classes are supposed to start at a high level, and so this would skip a lot of the leveling trouble. As for possible buffs:
Extra in-combat health/mana regen, maybe bonus stats, or even class specific buffs (like frost nova having a decreased chance to break, or druids getting an extra 10% bonus armor from items in bear form), although that may be more of what inscription does.
[...] Euripedes Fumbleknock Hemera Llanion Rakel Thuenderman [...]